[smerriman]

I have to agree with bluenikki here, at least because I play 2♦ as waiting and cheaper minor as a second negative. If partner does have an unbalanced hand, I'm completely stuck for a second (or any further) bid.

If you play an immediate 2♥ as a bust, then starting with 2♦ seems fine.

[Tramticket]

bluenikki, on 2020-May-16, 16:26, said:

You seem to think that a positive response equals slam zone for every strain. That is a very hard way to play.

À positive will usually deliver slam values, but this is not the point.

Partner has a very big, but it is still an undefined hand. He may be balanced, as here, when it might be appropriate for you to take control. But he will often be unbalanced with single-suiter or two-suiter and taking up so much bidding space will only get in the way of a constructive auction.

[Tramticket]

smerriman, on 2020-May-16, 22:14, said:

I have to agree with bluenikki here, at least because I play 2♦ as waiting and cheaper minor as a second negative. If partner does have an unbalanced hand, I'm completely stuck for a second (or any further) bid.

If you play an immediate 2♥ as a bust, then starting with 2♦ seems fine.

This is a second example in this thread of using a bid artificially without any agreement how you deal with the hand that wants to bid the suit naturally. The opening post uses 3C as Stayman and 4C as Gerber, so doesn't have a way of showing clubs. Using 3C as a second negative has a similar problem! Maybe you need to define 3C as "clubs or second negative"; or use the unfashionable 2NT as the second negative; or keep 3C as a second negative and use 2NT to show clubs; or get rid of the notion of a second negative completely!

But I don't think that a positive 3C is helpful (and would be impossible if you had 8 clubs and a three-count).

[nekthen]

Making use of 3♠ 4♣ and 4♦ is surely the say to go. Keeping it simple, let 3♠ be both minors and 4♣ and 4♦ be natural and forcing setting the trump suit. You can even make them minorwood.

[smerriman]

Tramticket, on 2020-May-17, 00:42, said:

This is a second example in this thread of using a bid artificially without any agreement how you deal with the hand that wants to bid the suit naturally.

How so? The way you bid it naturally is to respond 3♣, as I wrote. Having a slightly wider range of 3♣ positives is the agreed way to play it.

BWS uses cheaper minor without all of the addons you suggested.

[Tramticket]

smerriman, on 2020-May-17, 02:20, said:

How so? The way you bid it naturally is to respond 3♣, as I wrote. Having a slightly wider range of 3♣ positives is the agreed way to play it.

BWS uses cheaper minor without all of the addons you suggested.

Change the king and knave of hearts into low cards - now you can't be suggesting pretending to have a positive?

[smerriman]

Nope. Not sure how that's really relevant to the question of whether this is a positive response or not though. Yes, you give up the ability to show super weak hands with clubs, but every convention has drawbacks; not a huge one since if you're weak with clubs you're almost certainly going to play in one of opener's suits anyway. (Or you just show it on your next bid if the clubs are that long.)

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2020-May-16, 16:26, said:

You seem to think that a positive response equals slam zone for every strain. That is a very hard way to play.

No, but we play it F4N which is useful in these sequences.

Here I would seriously consider a 3♣ positive even though this clearly doesn't meet our requirements for the bid, as unless partner has a massive suit of his own or a vast hand where ♥KJ are all he needs, clubs or NT are where we want to be.

[Tramticket]

smerriman, on 2020-May-17, 02:44, said:

Nope. Not sure how that's really relevant to the question of whether this is a positive response or not though. Yes, you give up the ability to show super weak hands with clubs, but every convention has drawbacks; not a huge one since if you're weak with clubs you're almost certainly going to play in one of opener's suits anyway. (Or you just show it on your next bid if the clubs are that long.)

Yes, every convention has draw-backs and being forced into showing a positive you don't own is a definite draw-back. What will you bid with this hand after the auction starts (say) 2C-3C-3S? Do you carry on the pretence with 4C, which would show a self-supporting suit for most? Or do you support spades on your small doubleton and encourage partner to look for a spade slam?

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2020-May-17, 03:51, said:

Yes, every convention has draw-backs and being forced into showing a positive you don't own is a definite draw-back. What will you bid with this hand after the auction starts (say) 2C-3C-3S? Do you carry on the pretence with 4C, which would show a self-supporting suit for most? Or do you support spades on your small doubleton and encourage partner to look for a spade slam?

2♣-4♣ is the self supporting suit for many, 4♣ over 3♠ is a long suit without being solid. If partner's spades were solid, we'd have bid 4♠ not 3 and it would be forcing.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-17, 03:57, said:

2♣-4♣ is the self supporting suit for many, 4♣ over 3♠ is a long suit without being solid. If partner's spades were solid, we'd have bid 4♠ not 3 and it would be forcing.

Your partner will surely expect more top cards? No aces and one king will be a disappointment when he holds a big, but misfitting hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2020-May-17, 04:03, said:

Your partner will surely expect more top cards? No aces and one king will be a disappointment when he holds a big, but misfitting hand.

Absolutely agree but kickback may well sort that out, most likely thing to happen next is 4♦ KB, and you show no aces, the ♣Q and the ♥K and partner will know you have QJ to 8 or more and the K♥ and no other K, as with 7 you don't give a positive.

[msjennifer]

Sir,
Change your responses over the sequence 2♣-2♦-2NT. Else bid a poppa momma style 4NT for ACES .With your present half baked responses it is just not possible and you have to grope in the dark.Exchange your HK for DK and then how do you propose to proceed. You can make 7NT in that case.In the present hand if DK and HQ are OFF then its just very very difficult .THANKS

[Vampyr]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-15, 07:51, said:

For us 2♣-2♦-2N-3♠(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4♣(single suited clubs) and via any of a number of routes onwards to 6♣/6N.

We do something similar, except that we use 4♣/4♦ for both minors and 4♥/4♠ for just one minor.

[pdmunro]

Original poster here.
Another suggested sequence made to me privately was
2C - 2D (wait) - ;
2NT - 4C (Gerber) - ;
4D (0 or 4 aces) - 6NT -;
Partner, knowing I have 4 aces, can view her ♥K as an entry and bid 6NT.

[Cyberyeti]

pdmunro, on 2020-May-17, 09:07, said:

Original poster here.
Another suggested sequence made to me privately was
2C - 2D (wait) - ;
2NT - 4C (Gerber) - ;
4D (0 or 4 aces) - 6NT -;
Partner, knowing I have 4 aces, can view her ♥K as an entry and bid 6NT.

The problem with that auction is that partner has Axxx, AQx, AKQx, Ax, they lead a spade, 6♣ is pretty much cold if ♣Kx are offside, 6N is -3.

[Cyberyeti]

Vampyr, on 2020-May-17, 08:38, said:

We do something similar, except that we use 4♣/4♦ for both minors and 4♥/4♠ for just one minor.

We do exactly the reverse

[dB451]

I play various versions of this general approach with different partners, but picking one, we have:
2C - 2D(1) - 2N(2) - 3S(3) - 3N(4) - 4H(5) - 5C(6) - 5S(7) - 6C(8) - 6N(9)
Notes:
(1) Game force, showing at least one Ace, one King, two Queens, or a QJ in the same suit (basically, showing one trick, part of Two Hearts Bust)
(2) 22-24 pts, not unbalanced
(3) Relay to 3N
(4) Completing the relay, expecting some sort of minor-related action
(5) Keycard for Clubs (where, alternatively, 4C/D would be inviting keycard or a game in the minor, or a bail in NT, 4S would be KC for Diamonds, and 4N would show 5/5 in the minors, asking partner's opinion)
(6) 2 or 5 keycards; if 2, then without the Club Queen
(7) I know it's not 2, so Wow, we have them all, partner, so let's see whether you have the Spade King; if so, please bid the Grand
(8) Sorry to disappoint (no Spade King), but we did reach the good minor slam
(9) No reason to not play in NT, so thanks, partner, let's Do This!

[Cyberyeti]

dB451, on 2020-May-17, 19:23, said:

I play various versions of this general approach with different partners, but picking one, we have:
2C - 2D(1) - 2N(2) - 3S(3) - 3N(4) - 4H(5) - 5C(6) - 5S(7) - 6C(8) - 6N(9)
Notes:
(1) Game force, showing at least one Ace, one King, two Queens, or a QJ in the same suit (basically, showing one trick, part of Two Hearts Bust)
(2) 22-24 pts, not unbalanced
(3) Relay to 3N
(4) Completing the relay, expecting some sort of minor-related action
(5) Keycard for Clubs (where, alternatively, 4C/D would be inviting keycard or a game in the minor, or a bail in NT, 4S would be KC for Diamonds, and 4N would show 5/5 in the minors, asking partner's opinion)
(6) 2 or 5 keycards; if 2, then without the Club Queen
(7) I know it's not 2, so Wow, we have them all, partner, so let's see whether you have the Spade King; if so, please bid the Grand
(8) Sorry to disappoint (no Spade King), but we did reach the good minor slam
(9) No reason to not play in NT, so thanks, partner, let's Do This!

Why ask for the spade K, diamond K or heart Q are equally good, you know about 19 of partner's points and he has 3-5 left they all need to be quacks in spades and diamonds for grand not to be cold and something like AQx, Axxxx, AQx, AK you might be able to ruff the hearts out, it is very difficult for you not to have at least a finesse for the grand (partner would need ♥AQ doubleton) and there's a better than 50:50 chance it's cold. We would bid 5♥ saying I have one of the king or Q, bid 7 with the other, partner would bid 7 with the Q♥, 5♠ without but with K♠, 5N without but with something else not showable below 6♣ (K♦) and in this case 6♣ which we can convert to 6N.

How do you bid hands that are 5-4 in the minors ? which is what we use 4M for in this auction