[Sue601]

Sue May 22, 4:29 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.games.bridge
From: "Sue" <WSue...@aol.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: 22 May 2005 13:29:41 -0700
Local: Sun,May 22 2005 4:29 pm
Subject: Beginner Query about American Standard System Variations
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Learning American Standard 5 card majors system. I've noticed some
books on this system use 13 to 21 pts suit and 16-18 pts NT while
others recommend 12 to 20 pt suit and 15-17 pts NT.


Anyone aware of advantages/disadvantages to using either count system?
We're talking only one point differences here so I'm curious why the
variations.


Thanks
Sue

[luke warm]

hi sue, welcome to the forums... others will also answer, but in general (and especially regarding the no trump opening) it's a matter of frequency... the more often one can open, the more pressure one puts on the opps... that's why many people have lowered their 1NT opening to 14-16, or 12-14, or even 10-13

the same goes for other openings, as long as a partnership has ways to know when one opens light

[Fluffy]

Disagree with jimmy here, in fact opening 1NT makes you lose 4-4 major fit when you beling to part score and is not really a verygood opening.

Why it omes lowered is because after 1♦-1♠-1NT opener had shown a 12-15 HCP hand wich is a too wide HCP range in the view of many people, lowering 1 HCP the NT opening you solve this problem.

[luke warm]

i wasn't defending weak nt i was attempting to explain why the diff between 15-17 and 16-18.. it's (imo) a matter of frequency

[mr1303]

As a general rule for opening 1 of a suit (as opposed to passing or opening 2C) you shouldn't think too much in the way of HCP.

I rarely pass any 11 count regardless of vulnerability, but for a beginner if you have good suits and no rebid problems opening light is to be recommended.

[whereagles]

Fluffy said:

Disagree with jimmy here, in fact opening 1NT makes you lose 4-4 major fit when you beling to part score and is not really a verygood opening.

I must say disagree, gonzalo

1. I can't remember last time that losing a 44 major fit after a 15-17 1NT gave me a bad score. (Note that the field has the same problem.)

2. In fact, the last time losing a 44 major fit gave me a zero playing a 9-11 1NT was back in 1997 in a regional tournament (which I won in the end anyway).

3. 1NT is probably one of the best openings out there because it is VERY descriptive. Even if you dump 6m322, 4441, 5422 and 5M332 shapes in there, it's STILL a very precise opening which gives the opening side a considerable strategical and tactical advantage.

[david_c]

Sue601, on May 22 2005, 04:03 PM, said:

Learning American Standard 5 card majors system.  I've noticed some books on this system use 13 to 21 pts suit and 16-18 pts NT while others recommend 12 to 20 pt suit and 15-17 pts NT.

Requiring 13 points for a suit opening and 16-18 for 1NT is fairly old-fashioned. People discovered that if they had a 12-point hand, they would generally get better results from bidding a suit than by passing. In order to accommodate this, all the point ranges moved down by one. So nowadays a 15-17 range for no-trump is standard, and you hardly ever see anyone pass with a 12-point hand. This is probably the method you should be learning if you're a beginner, because you'll find it easier if you're doing the same thing as everyone else.

By the way, when you talk about "points" most people will assume you mean high-card points (A=4, K=3, Q=2, J=1). Some books say you should add extra points for distribution, e.g. I was taught to add one point for a 5-card suit and add two points for a 6-card suit. This makes a difference to the number of points needed for an opening bid. But even if you don't do this, you need to be aware that distribution is an important factor to consider, so for example if you have a good 6-card suit and 11 high-card points, you should almost always choose to open.

[kenberg]

Different strokes for different folks, as they say, but I recommend you use the 15-17 point no trump range. The reason is very practical: Most folks you play with here on BBO or at a tournament will be playing this range and you will find it easy to grab a partner. Of course the main thing is that you and partner have the same understandings. Probably almost any range is playable.

As for advantages and disadvantages of the 15-17 vs 16-18 range:

Playing 16-18, you pretty much cannot be opening both marginal balanced 12 counts and heavy 15 counts with, say, 1C or partner will never know what do do over the 1NT rebid. So you open fewer hands. On balance, it is probably better to have more hands that qualify as an opening bid. Pairs who open sound (sound means they require more points, it has nothing to do with whether they are actually better bidders) may have an advantage in competitive auctions on the hands they do open (safer for partner to double the opponents, for example) but they are often at a disadvantage on hands that others open and they don't.

I recommend, for a person in the early stages of bridge, playing an approach that is as mainstream as possible. In today's world, this means 15-17.

Good Luck,
Ken

[kenberg]

Oops. I now see that this is pretty much what David said just above me. Well, ditto.

[DrTodd13]

Fluffy, on May 22 2005, 05:25 PM, said:

Disagree with jimmy here, in fact opening 1NT makes you lose 4-4 major fit when you beling to part score and is not really a verygood opening.

Why it omes lowered is because after 1♦-1♠-1NT opener had shown a 12-15 HCP hand wich is a too wide HCP range in the view of many people, lowering 1 HCP the NT opening you solve this problem.

This is pretty funny. A system is worrying about a NT rebid being 12-15 when its opening range is 13-21. Perhaps if the system didn't have the first gaping problem then the second problem wouldn't arise.

Seriously though, it is amazing how ignorant people are of their own systems. I know people who have played SA for decades and still don't know things like 1♣-1♥-1♠ may be 18 points. They've been taught rules and never learned why those rules exists so they miss things like this. If people realized how truly awful SA is I can't imagine it would be so prevalent.

[luke warm]

DrTodd13, on May 23 2005, 11:53 AM, said:

If people realized how truly awful SA is I can't imagine it would be so prevalent.

rofl

even 2/1 has some serious drawbacks, but with the right gadgets it's very playable (weak nt among them heh)

[bearmum]

Sue601, on May 23 2005, 10:03 AM, said:

Sue  May 22, 4:29 pm    show options


Learning American Standard 5 card majors system.  I've noticed some
books on this system use 13 to 21 pts suit and 16-18 pts NT while
others recommend 12 to 20 pt suit and 15-17 pts NT.


Anyone aware of advantages/disadvantages to using either count system?
We're talking only one point differences here so I'm curious why the
variations.


Thanks
Sue

Edited post

Sue if you are learning Standard American (regardless of some other's views of that system-- which are immeterial to the question you asked ) the differences don't seem much --- but personally I prefer the slightly lower 12-20 suit and 15-17 NT

but I will open with a "good" 11 pointer and maybe pass a "bad" 12 points (especially VUL) ...

This is a matter of partnership style ( and why a lot of folk will recommend opening on 9+ and maybe NT on 10-13 etc)

But IMHO the biggest thing one can do is agree the style and stick to it .... nothing is more destructive to partnerships than total inconsistency

[flytoox]

Is there any book on Std American? I only read some okbridge version.

[Walddk]

Some links for you:

http://www.trafford....ts/98-0027.html

http://www.trafford....ts/98-0028.html

http://www.trafford....ts/98-0029.html


And not least Richard Pavlicek's notes at:

http://www.rpbridge.net/7g13.htm

....

Roland

[Sue601]

Thanks, I appreciate the help and links. Interestingly, no one mentioned I mis-named the bidding system. I name it after a famous toilet manufacturer. My first beginner lesson has been to name the system correctly--Standard American!

Walddk provided some very useful links that will keep me busy for some time. I also found one on my own -- The Fifth Chair -- with lessons on the SAYC system at

www.fifthchair.org.

Now off to learn some bridge.

Sue