[Liversidge]

With standard bidding, what is responder showing here?: 1♦-1♥-2♣-4♥

And here? 1♦-2♥-3♣-4♥

[hrothgar]

Liversidge, on 2020-May-08, 11:28, said:

With standard bidding, what is responder showing here?: 1♦-1♥-2♣-4♥

And here? 1♦-2♥-3♣-4♥

Opposite the first

♠ Kxx
♥KQJT964
♦ xx
♣ x

[hrothgar]

Opposite the second

♠ Axx
♥ AKQ9xxx
♦ xx
♣ x

[Liversidge]

hrothgar, on 2020-May-08, 11:39, said:

Opposite the second

♠ Axx
♥ AKQ9xxx
♦ xx
♣ x

Many thanks.

[hrothgar]

Liversidge, on 2020-May-08, 11:47, said:

Many thanks.

Don't thank me too quickly...

Its entirely possible that others will disagree firmly with my examples

[Liversidge]

hrothgar, on 2020-May-08, 11:48, said:

Don't thank me too quickly...

Its entirely possible that others will disagree firmly with my examples

Your answers helped construct a mental framework for me. I hope it holds up.

1D-1H-2C-2H shows a weak hand, no fit with partner, no realistic NT potential - 6 cards and one or two honours (suit quality 8)
1D-1H-2C-3H shows a point or two more and 7 card suit(suit quality 9)
1D-1H-2C-4H a tad stronger, Suit quality 10, self sufficient.
1D-2H-3C-4H (jump shift) probably at least 14 HCP, showing a self sufficient suit and a hand that might offer slam possibilities if opener has extras.

[Cyberyeti]

Liversidge, on 2020-May-08, 12:14, said:

1D-2H-3C-4H (jump shift) probably at least 14 HCP, showing a self sufficient suit and a hand that might offer slam possibilities if opener has extras.

Suggest 3♥ might be better than 4 in this situation, 2♥ is already GF. You also need to be clear what 1♦-3/4♥ are

[Liversidge]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-08, 13:04, said:

Suggest 3♥ might be better than 4 in this situation, 2♥ is already GF. You also need to be clear what 1♦-3/4♥ are

Good point. Leaves room for cue bidding.
Can you suggest anything for 1♦3♥/4♥? I can't think of a non-conventional use for them.

t

[Tramticket]

Liversidge, on 2020-May-08, 11:28, said:

And here? 1♦-2♥-3♣-4♥

As cyberyeti says, the 2H response created a game forcing situation and 3H would be a normal bid, setting hearts as trumps. This makes the jump to 4H a strange and unusual bid. I don't have any agreement on the meaning.

[Tramticket]

Liversidge, on 2020-May-08, 14:01, said:

Can you suggest anything for 1♦3♥/4♥? I can't think of a non-conventional use for them. t

We play 1D-3H as a splinter. 1D-4H does not exist for us.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2020-May-08, 14:18, said:

We play 1D-3H as a splinter. 1D-4H does not exist for us.

Some people play 4♥ as KQJ 8th and maybe a little more but not much else (ie something where 3N is not likely to be sensible). We play 1♦-3♥ as specifically a void, we push the singletons through an inverted 2♦.

[smerriman]

Liversidge, on 2020-May-08, 11:28, said:

And here? 1♦-2♥-3♣-4♥

If you're playing Soloway (much better than the old fashioned strong jump shifts), then this can be used to show a minimum with solid trumps, like hrothgar's hand, allowing the non-jump rebid to be stronger (see http://kwbridge.com/js.htm).

[dsLawsd]

Tramticket, on 2020-May-08, 14:15, said:

As cyberyeti says, the 2H response created a game forcing situation and 3H would be a normal bid, setting hearts as trumps. This makes the jump to 4H a strange and unusual bid. I don't have any agreement on the meaning.

Possibly that 3♣improved my hand? No outside controls to bid.
The alternative might be showing specifically a 1 loser suit?

[dsLawsd]

Some might play 2♥ as a weak jump shift in their system although I cannot recommend it. More popular in the 70's and 80's/

[bluenikki]

Tramticket, on 2020-May-08, 14:15, said:

As cyberyeti says, the 2H response created a game forcing situation and 3H would be a normal bid, setting hearts as trumps. This makes the jump to 4H a strange and unusual bid. I don't have any agreement on the meaning.

Forcing is not the same as promising a suit playable at slam opposite a void. 2♥ then 4♥ promises such a suit. But denies enough side strength to take over. Somethng like a side ace and the queen of one of opener's suits.

If you bid only 3♥ , you will be forced to take over. That is, forced to guess.

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2020-May-09, 07:02, said:

Forcing is not the same as promising a suit playable at slam opposite a void. 2♥ then 4♥ promises such a suit. But denies enough side strength to take over. Somethng like a side ace and the queen of one of opener's suits.

If you bid only 3♥ , you will be forced to take over. That is, forced to guess.

Only if you don't have system for this, we play (playing a weak NT) 2N as small singleton heart (J or less) or a void so 3♥ over 2N already confirms a hand prepared to play a slam opposite a small singleton and the 3♣ rebid confirms at least xx/Q in the heart suit.

[dave_beer]

hrothgar, on 2020-May-08, 11:39, said:

Opposite the second

♠ Axx
♥ AKQ9xxx
♦ xx
♣ x

I would expect xx-AKQJxxxx-xx-x and it might have a stray Q or so but definitely not side A or K.

With your example I would bid 2♥ and then 3♥.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 what is the meaning of a 4H response to a 1D opening, splinter or to play?
#2 does not exist, either 2H was gf, than 3H or 2H was weak, than 3H

With kind regards
Marlowe

[miamijd]

ALlow me to disagree slightly with some of what has been written before.

A weak hand with great hearts just bids 4H over 1D. That's isn't a splinter. 3H is a double-jump; it is a splinter (you wouldn't want to go past 3NT in this situation, either).

1♦-1♥-2♣-4♥

This is a GF hand with no first or second round control outside of hearts. Maybe something like:

xx AKQJxx xx Qxx

If you had weaker hand, you could invite with 3H. If you had an outside control, you would bid 2S FSF first, then bid hearts as cheaply as possible

1♦-2♥-3♣-4♥

There really is no such an auction if you are playing any sort of disciplined strong jump shifts (17+). The whole point of a SJS is to find slams. The second bid from the jump shifter shows whether he has a strong suit of his own, support for opener's suit, or a big, balanced hand with a five-bagger. Bidding 3H shows the single-suited strong jump shift. 3NT would show the balanced hand with five hearts. 3S would show the diamond support hand.

The hand one commenter posited:

Axx AKQxxxx xx x

is probably not quite good enough for a SJS, but if you think it is, then you rebid 3H to show a very strong hand with a good heart suit. Bidding 4H is pointless. Ostensibly it would show a great hand with no first or second round control outside of H, but it that's your hand, you don't have a SJS.

Cheers,
Mike

[AL78]

miamijd, on 2020-May-10, 20:29, said:

The hand one commenter posited:

Axx AKQxxxx xx x

is probably not quite good enough for a SJS, but if you think it is, then you rebid 3H to show a very strong hand with a good heart suit. Bidding 4H is pointless. Ostensibly it would show a great hand with no first or second round control outside of H, but it that's your hand, you don't have a SJS.

I would say that five loser eight playing trick hand very close to a strong Acol 2♥ opening is good enough for a SJS. If you are not going to SJS on a hand like that, you might as well take them off your card.