[shyams]

---

IMPs, West deals, opponents pass throughout. Using 2/1 GF, our bidding went:

North South
1♥ - 2♦
2♥ - 2NT
3♣ - 3♦
3♥ - 4♥
end

There are 12 tricks in ♥ or ♣. Who was too timid in the auction?

[rustysnow]

 shyams, on 2020-April-12, 19:04, said:

---

IMPs, West deals, opponents pass throughout. Using 2/1 GF, our bidding went:

North South
1♥ - 2♦
2♥ - 2NT
3♣ - 3♦
3♥ - 4♥
end

There are 12 tricks in ♥ or ♣. Who was too timid in the auction?

would love to hear the advanced players talking about this hand as I feel other intermediates like me might do the same thing. just chirping in my immediate thoughts so others can correct me too

1. South probably can infer that partner has some weirdly shaped 6-4 or 6-5 in hearts with solid suit other than hearts and perhaps singleton/void somewhere to show slam interest or even just prolonging the bidding. Otherwise, North perhaps would jump to 4H over 2NT with the principle of fast arrival. Perhaps South could control bid 4C (should be seen as control bid after the 2NT rebid promising 2 hearts probably but am not sure) or to play safe perhaps 4D. Only reason why South maybe is worried about slam is if North has doubleton Spade and opponents find Spade lead. Control bid from South probably would help North in deciding that slam is on the horizons.

2. North probably should keycard 4NT after 4H as finding partner with 3 aces would be enough for slam. Not even trying for slam is slightly undervaluing North's own hand. If say North is really conservative, South's response max is 5H after 4NT keycard since queen of hearts with North (and hence signoff at 5H would be possible). But South really ought to have at least two aces for GF 2D.

Perhaps, in the end, both sides might be too conservative.

I do not know how accurate my inferences are but I'm quite vocal and more than willing to learn so here's me just leaving my thought process here would be interesting to see how the more seasoned players think!

Stay safe and take care!

Regards,
Russell

[Cyberyeti]

I'm not a 2/1 player, so not sure of the inferences here. Presumably 3♣ would show significant extras for you so you rebid 2♥ and this only guarantees 5 ?

Is 2N normal without a spade stop ? Is it better than 3N, how much does it show ?

I think S should bid 3♥ not 3♦, Hx would be pretty typical now, it's the most he can hold.

[FelicityR]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-April-13, 04:14, said:

I'm not a 2/1 player, so not sure of the inferences here. Presumably 3♣ would show significant extras for you so you rebid 2♥ and this only guarantees 5 ?

Is 2N normal without a spade stop ? Is it better than 3N, how much does it show ?

I think S should bid 3♥ not 3♦, Hx would be pretty typical now, it's the most he can hold.

I'm in agreement. When South shows doubleton ♥ support with 3♥ instead of 3♦, North with the 6/5 (come alive!) hand definitely must now make an attempt at slam with 3♠. If they can't reach 6♥ after that, then they are erring on the side of caution. South is control rich and has extras beyond a game force, North is distribution-ally beautiful.

Probably the worst that can happen from North's point of view is that they reach 5♥ when South has just two aces and only game can be made. South's hand just improves immensely when North bids the second suit ♣s.

Kaplan and Rubens evaluator confirms the potential of the hands, valuing North as just over 16, and South just under 18 and 1/2. 34 Tiotal points seems slam territory to me.

[pescetom]

In most modern 2/1 the 2♦ response is played as an unconditional game force, which frees north to bid his clubs with some extra points (absent) or shape (present). So without assuming a sophisticated control-bid scheme or kickback, an intermediate auction might go:
1♥ - 2♦
3♣ - 3♠ (stop?)
4♥ - 4N (keycards?)
5♣ (1) - 5♦ (Q♥?)
6♣ (Q♥+K♣) 6♥
p

[nullve]

2/1, typical Norwegian dialect:

1♥(1)-2♦(2)
2♥(3)-2N(4)
3♣(5)-3♥(6)
4♣(7)-4♦(8)
4N(9)-5♣(10)
6♥(11)-P

(1) standard, but rule of 19-ish
(2) GF except rebid
(3) catchall
(4) NAT GF, not necessarily BAL
(5) ~ lower half of 1♥ range, 4+ C
(6) 2 H (3♦ would have shown 6+ D)
(7) good hand in context, confirms H fit, C control
(8) D control (or maybe Last Train)
(9) RKC
(10) 0 or 3 key cards
(11) contract

[DavidKok]

In a 2/1 GF system, opener can respond 3♣ after 2♦, promising at least 5-5 (and not necessarily extra points). But in the bidding as shown I think the bigger flaw is 2NT by south, although this is very dependent on partnership agreements. Assuming it is clear 2NT does not promise any points in spades, south should bid 3♥ over 3♣ (the diamonds are known, and by failing to support for two rounds south denied three hearts. So the suit can hardly be better than AT!), which also asks for a spade stopper. If North has suitable imagination, he can now picture a partner with little to no points in spades, two hearts, decent diamonds and therefore also some values in clubs, so maybe they could jump to 4♠ to show this shapely hand with shortness. This ought to wake south up, and eventually push the bidding to 6♥.

[smerriman]

 DavidKok, on 2020-April-13, 07:26, said:

In a 2/1 GF system, opener can respond 3♣ after 2♦, promising at least 5-5 (and not necessarily extra points).

Based on polls at Bridge Winners (and the resulting Bridge World Standard), this is definitely a minority view.

[nige1]

I like Nullve's suggested auction on Shyam's hand
(I've rotated the hand to try to clarify the auction).


Opener asks because all he needs is 3 aces for slam to be a reasonable proposition.

---

[Stephen Tu]

I don't see why responder should bid 2nt with 3 small spades. Seems to me a good way to get to 3nt with spades wide open or 3nt with partner's Kx led through with East having the ace.
In my partnerships responder would rebid 3c, showing stopper and 3+, and not much in spades, which ought to be enough to get North to like their hand and drive to slam.

[nige1]

 Stephen Tu, on 2020-April-13, 17:52, said:

I don't see why responder should bid 2nt with 3 small spades. Seems to me a good way to get to 3nt with spades wide open or 3nt with partner's Kx led through with East having the ace. In my partnerships responder would rebid 3c, showing stopper and 3+, and not much in spades, which ought to be enough to get North to like their hand and drive to slam.

Stepen Tu's suggestion, of 3♣ rather than 2N, seems an improvement..
But, on this deal, it seems to make it harder for opener to take control.
On a good day, we might achieve the auction on the left.

---

[Stephen Tu]

 nige1, on 2020-April-14, 00:27, said:

Stephen Tu's suggestion, of 3♣ rather than 2N, seems an improvement..
But, on this deal, it seems to make it harder for opener to take control.[/hv]

Well, in my partnerships, over 3c opener could just kickback with 4d. (To agree diamonds would bid 3d first). So something like 1h-2d-2h-3c-4d!-4s!-6h.

[mikeh]

 Stephen Tu, on 2020-April-14, 00:47, said:

Well, in my partnerships, over 3c opener could just kickback with 4d. (To agree diamonds would bid 3d first). So something like 1h-2d-2h-3c-4d!-4s!-6h.

Really? How many hearts has responder shown on this auction? It seems to me that responder would bid the same way with say Axx void AKxxx AJxxx

Surely he should not bid 2N over 2H with that hand?

[Stephen Tu]

 mikeh, on 2020-April-14, 04:57, said:

Really? How many hearts has responder shown on this auction? It seems to me that responder would bid the same way with say Axx void AKxxx AJxxx

Surely he should not bid 2N over 2H with that hand?

Yeah you are probably right.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

looking at your auction, 3H by opener should show 64 and a min opener, maybe 6322 is possible.
Given the controls and the club values, responder should make a move, the only question is which bid,
3S / 3NT are out.
I am also not convinced, that 4C / 4D are cues, implicitly agreeing hearts, so maybe 5H it is.

Will opener accept? No idea.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[nige1]

 Stephen Tu, on 2020-April-14, 00:47, said:

Well, in my partnerships, over 3c opener could just kickback with 4d. (To agree diamonds would bid 3d first). So something like 1h-2d-2h-3c-4d!-4s!-6h.

Logically, 4♦ is kickback for ♣s but 6♣ is a good contract and responder is free to correct to 6♥

[gszes]

intriguing how many differing styles of 2/1 there seem to be. I doubt anyone would suggest (noint) a start of 1d 2c 2d as a catch all bid when it is so simple to show a 4 card major over the 2c bid w/o showing extra values. This means I am quite surprised no one suggested the inference that opener lacked a 4 card spade suit. I understand the principle of bidding beyond the original suit should show extra values but the idea was based on the concept of leaving 2nt available. The failure to show the spades immediately can cause severe complications later in the bidding where it might become unclear if opener actually has spade support or merely suggesting a possible moysian with nothing better to bid. How does this thinking affect this hand?

The 2h bid denying 4 spades creates a situation where 2s by responder can now be used to show spades stopped for NT (or just another temporizing bid with further discussion) rather than worrying about finding a fit there. Opener begins to appreciate their hand much more when responder bypasses 2s for 3c (don't get me started on the no spade stop 2n bid) due to the singleton spade. Opener can no longer suppress the great heart suit so 3h is bid and even if responder tries to sign off in 4h (due to concerns about spade losers off the top), opener should realize responder surely would have bid 3s (with the spade ace) on the way to 4h so the singleton spade now looks tremendous. I would bid 4s expecting it to be exclusion and after finding 3 keys I would bid 6h since I can see almost zero advantage to us playing in our theoretically bigger club fit (at least until I hear that stinking lightner x asking for a club lead sigh).

Mikeh shows a good example where the bidding can go 1h 2d 2h 3c 3h 3s (asking for help for 3n) 4s (a minor fit and spade control but not strong enough to take over the bidding) easily arriving at 6c but needing partnership notes to discover the heart void and biding 7c.

Be Well