[pilowsky]

I'm going to stick my head on the block here and say that most people would accept that 2C Stayman in response to an opening of 1NT (15-17 or 18) indicates - at the very least - 8 HCP. Some would say it ought to include a 4 card major. Certainly, that's what the GIB system card promises ("2♣ Stayman (promises at least one 4-card major unless inviting 3NT)." To be fair, A lot of resources are a bit louche on the 8 HCP bit and one Expert (who ranked in Australia's top 5 last year) told me they would bid 2♣ on less. But my card play is not that good. Jeff Tang's Bridgebum doesn't provide a lower limit, but the lowest I can see in his examples is 8.

So what's my beef? As usual, I made a bidding error in practice against the 'prime robots' and called 1NT on a balanced hand with 19 HCP. When I checked the results, I saw that the more experienced people stretched to 2NT (which is what I usually do) or opened 1♦ or the incorrect 1♣ (see eg learnbridge.NYC). Am I wrong, or should my partner Stayman with 4♠ and 8HCP? I was pretty disappointed to make 1NTS+3 for -5 IMPs while everyone else was in 3NTS. Even Wikipedia agrees.

So, what does our expert panel think? Here's Aaron Stayman singing about coffee to help you think.
https://tinyurl.com/vf75fg5

---

[Tramticket]

 pilowsky, on 2020-March-02, 03:49, said:

most people would accept that 2C Stayman in response to an opening of 1NT (15-17 or 18) indicates - at the very least - 8 HCP.

Well, many also use Stayman to sign-off with weak hands (Garbage Stayman etc.).

But if Stayman is bid in a constructive sense then it should be at least invitational values.

Your robot's 8-count hand is a particularly ugly 8 count (completely flat, no aces, isolated honours). I would tend to down-grade if anything. But I wouldn't invite with most eight-counts anyway - unless it had a bit extra in terms of shape (e.g. a five-card suit) or texture.

[Cyberyeti]

You count 8 points, but this hand with 3 unsupported quacks and poor intermediates is not worth 8 points.

K&R rates it below 6 but I'd probably say 6-7 opposite 15-17 so an easy pass.

Let's give partner a really chunky 17 with cards that make yours useful Qxx, xxx, AKJx, AKx and you're not making more than 8.

Stayman needn't be an 8 count, what do you do with a 4450 yarborough ? playing normal stayman you can simply pass whatever partner bids.

Many people with a 4333 won't even bother using stayman and will just bid 2N if they feel they're in range.

Note that with the nice 19 that you have, on a heart lead, if the Q wasn't doubleton you would be very lucky to make this (you would need spades 3-3, or hearts 4-4 and the ♣J onside) which shows how bad the 8 count is

[hrothgar]

1. A 2♣ response only promises values if you are planning a 2NT rebid

2. Partner's pass is reasonable. (This isn't a hand where you have any good rebid over 2♦ and you don't prefer 2M to 1NT)

[pescetom]

As others have explained, North has no reason to invite with that hand.

Whether or not responder promises a 4-card major depends upon what uses you make of Stayman beyond locating a fit for the 4-card major. It's common for instance to play a response of 2NT as transfer to diamonds rather than a natural invite, so in absence of a Range Ask all balanced invites must go through Stayman even without a 4-card major.

Whether or not responder promises invitational strength depends upon the garbage capabilities of your Stayman. With any 3-response Stayman you will be better off bidding 2♣ than pass with 0HCP 4=4=5=0. If it incorporates Crawling then you can also bid 0HCP with 5-5 majors and no diamonds. If it is a pure Puppet then you can risk 0HCP with long diamonds and little else (even nothing else if 1NT denies 5-card major).

[johnu]

Inviting with 8 HCP is certainly the percentage bid when opener has a 19 count.

[msjennifer]

Sir, 1)I,personally, feel that opening 1NT on such a South hand is doing injustice to the system.Another reason to bid 1NT may be to outsmart the Robots on the table. (2) Stayman is used only if the player thinks that a better contract is desirable or as some play (a) an invitational 2NT bid next time. (b) to fool the novice opponents (Garbage Stayman) © to follow with many artificial or normal bids. .
A normal stayman bid does indeed promise a 4 Card major suit and 8 HCP least (or that is what is taught to beginners).
Playing 15/17 NT the North has no reasons whatsoever either to invite with a 2NT bid OR bid 2C .The given hand is a miserable 8 HCP and sometimes even 1NT may fail opposite a flat 15HCP.
Had S opened a normal 1D then automatically a 3NT contract would have been reached. Whether it will make or not is not the point of debate .
A NT opening and the further development ,opponents strategies and how to deal with those,Stayman and Extended Stayman,Transfers with more complex bids later,Baron or not,Texas or SA texas,Gerber or NOT,Quantitative 4NT or not and a host of other bids are beyond the so called ROBOT 's artificial brain.It is therefore undesirable (if not silly) to use these with a ROBOT partner.














)

[barmar]

 msjennifer, on 2020-March-02, 09:58, said:

Sir, 1)I,personally, feel that opening 1NT on such a South hand is doing injustice to the system.

He admitted "I made a bidding error" in the original post.

[pilowsky]

I'd really like to thank everyone for their helpful input. As the old Jewish joke goes: if you want to get 11 opinions you only need 10 jews. I also checked with my partner at the club - he agrees with you, Mrs Director who runs the session today - a very good player - thought 2♣, but her husband also a very strong player thought 'pass' when I just showed them the North hand.
Out of interest, I gave the ♥K to East and the result is what everyone predicted 1NT+1 except, interestingly, on a heart lead when the result can be 1NT+2 - a result I would be sure not to achieve. https://tinyurl.com/uxnsdxx

[nekthen]

Nothing much to add except to defend 1♣
IMO the correct bid.
Whatever partner bids, you plan to rebid 2N. There are two advantages over 1♦
1. you put opps off club lead (not much as you do not promise 4 but still)
2. You dont have to deal with 1♦ - p - 2♣

[Cyberyeti]

 nekthen, on 2020-March-03, 05:52, said:

Nothing much to add except to defend 1♣
IMO the correct bid.
Whatever partner bids, you plan to rebid 2N. There are two advantages over 1♦
1. you put opps off club lead (not much as you do not promise 4 but still)
2. You dont have to deal with 1♦ - p - 2♣

I hadn't thought about point 2 as with me playing a weak NT, 2N is GF so there is no issue.

Point 1 with 10987 a club lead might be exactly what you need to create your 9th trick opposite quack x which you don't otherwise have the time to do.

[nekthen]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-March-03, 06:02, said:

I hadn't thought about point 2 as with me playing a weak NT, 2N is GF so there is no issue.

Point 1 with 10987 a club lead might be exactly what you need to create your 9th trick opposite quack x which you don't otherwise have the time to do.

It is an issue for 15-17 NT players though

[Cyberyeti]

 nekthen, on 2020-March-03, 08:25, said:

It is an issue for 15-17 NT players though

Agreed, it's an obvious 1♦ playing what I play as the very likely 1♦-1M-1N(15-bad 19)-2♣(asking)-3♣(17-19 4-4m) is more efficient than starting with clubs and bidding diamonds next, but with a strong NT I can see the argument for 1♣ (although what are you going to do over a 1♦ response ?).

[Vampyr]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-March-03, 06:02, said:

I hadn't thought about point 2 as with me playing a weak NT, 2N is GF so there is no issue.

Point 1 with 10987 a club lead might be exactly what you need to create your 9th trick opposite quack x which you don't otherwise have the time to do.

Why do you play 2NT as GF? Do you have some other way to show 18-19 balanced?

[Cyberyeti]

 Vampyr, on 2020-March-03, 08:42, said:

Why do you play 2NT as GF? Do you have some other way to show 18-19 balanced?

Over a 2 level response (and was talking about 1♦-2♣-2N) weak NT Acol has always played 2N as GF.

We play 1x-1y-1N as 15-bad 19, 2N opener good 19-21 meaning we use the jump 2N rebid for other things (death hand among others, GF unbal)

[nekthen]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-March-03, 08:42, said:

Agreed, it's an obvious 1♦ playing what I play as the very likely 1♦-1M-1N(15-bad 19)-2♣(asking)-3♣(17-19 4-4m) is more efficient than starting with clubs and bidding diamonds next, but with a strong NT I can see the argument for 1♣ (although what are you going to do over a 1♦ response ?).

1♣ 1♦ 2N partner can pass or describe hand or bid 3N

I am experimenting with the idea that 1x 1y 2N guarantees a 5 card suit in a balanced 18-19
2♦ being either weak with both majors or 18-19 balanced no 5 card suit

[msjennifer]

 nekthen, on 2020-March-03, 09:18, said:

1♣ 1♦ 2N partner can pass or describe hand or bid 3N

I am experimenting with the idea that 1x 1y 2N guarantees a 5 card suit in a balanced 18-19
2♦ being either weak with both majors or 18-19 balanced no 5 card suit

Sir,Is it not strange so many different variations can be developed after looking at 26 cards.Will not be it difficult to remember and then use in practise and that too only if the opponents keep silent which is very rare these days.THANKS

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-March-03, 06:02, said:

I hadn't thought about point 2 as with me playing a weak NT, 2N is GF so there is no issue.

I play a weak NT too, so I may be missing something, but isn't 1D-2C forcing to game for those who play 2/1? Why is this an awkward auction when you have club support and close to slam values?

[pescetom]

 Tramticket, on 2020-March-03, 12:53, said:

I play a weak NT too, so I may be missing something, but isn't 1D-2C forcing to game for those who play 2/1? Why is this an awkward auction when you have club support and close to slam values?

Either I misread or I'm not sure what you guys are smoking?
for most of us who play 2/1, 1D - 2C both unpassed hands is game forcing and does not guarantee clubs (even if Bridge World Standard only conceded recently). But precisely because of that, North could never respond 1C here even with a passed hand. It would be 1S or 1NT, according to agreements. Still not an awkward auction though.

[pigpenz]

generally is has always been acceptable to bid stayman on a 4441 hand or 4351 hand where you pass all responses, it has to be better play a suit contract than 1NT when you have a zero count.
Teds World bridge site has run simulations on this that is play almost 1 trick better than trying to gut it out in 1NT