[hrothgar]

 thepossum, on 2022-July-11, 20:57, said:

Very few industries (other than maybe software technology) keep using the failure of previous versions to sell upgrades

Very few industries are running the Red Queen's race in quite this same manner

The previous versions of the vaccines continue to work just fine against the strains of the virus that they were intended to protect against.
The virus itself is changing

Each year we get a new set of flu shots to protect against new strains of the flu

Why would you expect COVID to be any different

[pilowsky]

 thepossum, on 2022-July-11, 20:57, said:

I am sure there will be increasing drug-cocktail options available as time goes on

In other news billions of people worldwide face serious food insecurity - maybe not as profitable

Very few industries (other than maybe software technology) keep using the failure of previous versions to sell upgrades

Food insecurity is an important problem and it is likely that the COVID19 pandemic, food insecurity, population growth and climate change are mechanistically related.
What is not clear is what you mean by 'failure'.
The failure of communities to seize the opportunity to become fully vaccinated despite the availability to them of effective vaccines is an obvious failure.
The failure of wealthy communities to make the fruits of their research and development of vaccines is another failure.

SARS is like influenza - it mutates and requires new vaccines to the new protein.
In that way it is similar to food insecurity - one meal doesn't fix the problem - hunger always comes back.

[thepossum]

I simply have concerns about conflicts between profit and making the best decisions for the world in any industry

Example issue that concerns me as a none expert with a fair bit of understanding

1. We all know SARS 1 and 2 mutate like all viruses. Was every single decision of the (seemingly excessive number) all vaccine research and development projects made using best science to prevent spread of the virus without consideration of revenue streams. To me it seems not

2. Can also those vaccine (and other) projects be justified

3. Is leaving such decisions up to a very greedy market which can easily pull the wool over questioning eyes appropriate

Etc

[thepossum]

Hi sorry. I didn't think you were awake. I was editing 🙂

[barmar]

Are you seriously suggesting a conspiracy between vaccine manufacturers and the governments so that we would buy more vaccines than are really needed? Like we don't really need multiple boosters.

It's true that the Covid vaccine and drug manufacturers are reaping huge financial benefits. But if we actually need these drugs, what's wrong with the manufacturers doing well -- that's how capitalism wiorks. We don't expect them to give things away (although I think the WHO required them to free up patents) -- it's the government's job to pony up the cash for disasters.

Are the drug companies driving up the prices that they charge the government, like the company a few years ago that raised the price of epi-pens by orders of magnitude? They do have us over a barrel, so there might not be anything to stop them (what politician wants to be caught saying "Sorry, Pfizer, that's too much -- we're going to let people die"?). I don't know anything about how the prices were negotiated, do you have any evidence that there's something wrong, or are you just stirring up FUD?

Or maybe just that we don't need vaccines from 3 different companies, 1 or 2 would have been adequate? Generally, competition is good for consumers.

[cherdano]

 thepossum, on 2022-July-21, 06:56, said:

2. Can also those vaccine (and other) projects be justified

Yes.

Quote

3. Is leaving such decisions up to a very greedy market which can easily pull the wool over questioning eyes appropriate

No it's not. And that's why we don't.

What kind of s* are you smoking?

[barmar]

My father's first occupation (before he joined the family business of houseware distribution) was as a chiropractor. He went into that field of medicine because he severely distrusted the medical establishment, espectially drug companies. He was also especially skeptical of mass vaccination programs, he thought they were a conspiracy with the government. Even though he grew up in the 30's and 40's, and must have seen the devastation of diseases like polio that have since been essentially eradicated by vaccination. I'm not sure if schools required children to be vaccinated when I was growing up in the 60's, and I think I didn't receive the usual vaccines; I came down with measles when I was in college.

[y66]

Quote

https://www.ft.com/c...dit_cb_20220808

BioNTech and Pfizer will start a clinical trial of a Covid-19 vaccine adapted to the BA.4 and BA.5 variants of Omicron this month, as the German biotech forecasts an increase in demand at the end of the year.

...

BioNTech has been manufacturing doses of its first Omicron vaccine — targeted at the BA.1 variant — since spring and is ready to deliver whenever it is approved by a regulator. The company expects to be able to start delivering shots targeted at BA.4 and BA.5 as early as October if it receives regulatory sign-off.

Özlem Türeci, chief medical officer, said data from studies in mice — which has previously been predictive — showed the shot targeted at BA.4 and BA.5 elicited a stronger immune response against those variants and all the other sub-variants of Omicron. She said this data, combined with their extensive experience and data from prior Covid vaccines, may be sufficient for emergency approval, and enable a “timely response”.

[pilowsky]

Today is Dr Fauci's last White House press conference.
He suggested that people get vaccinated.
Good advice.

[kenberg]

 barmar, on 2022-July-28, 08:23, said:

My father's first occupation (before he joined the family business of houseware distribution) was as a chiropractor. He went into that field of medicine because he severely distrusted the medical establishment, espectially drug companies. He was also especially skeptical of mass vaccination programs, he thought they were a conspiracy with the government. Even though he grew up in the 30's and 40's, and must have seen the devastation of diseases like polio that have since been essentially eradicated by vaccination. I'm not sure if schools required children to be vaccinated when I was growing up in the 60's, and I think I didn't receive the usual vaccines; I came down with measles when I was in college.

I have not been closely watching this thread so I just saw this today. I still want to comment.

I gather that you regard your father's skepticism as unrealistic and I agree. But I know many people who put total faith in anything that a doctor tells them and I also regard that as unrealistic. I think that money sometimes plays a role, often not explicitly. I think the greater problem is human nature. Doctors have limited time and limited ability and so caution is needed. They say we should ask questions but when we do they get upset. I could fill pages with stories demonstrating this but I will just give one, I think I mentioned it before. Becky and I both have sleep apnea. She was talking to her doctor, he was saying how great it was that her AHI (a measure of the problem) had gone down, she was saying that the apnea was still affecting her life and she wanted to see how to get it lower. He replied, "Who is the doctor? Oh, I am the doctor". Of course, she now sees a different sleep doctor.

Although his phrasing might have been unusual, the lack of respect for the patient's thoughts is, unfortunately, extremely common. I can give examples going back to my 20s, and now in my 80s the greater need for medical care makes such occurrences a part of everyday life. Extreme cynicism is a form of naivety, just as unquestioning faith is a form of naivety. We have to cope, nothing new about that.

As to childhood days, I was born in 1939 so my childhood years fall between yours and your father's. I started kindergarten in 1943, we were given vaccines in school, they just did it, nobody asked me, I am not sure what would have happened if my parents said no vaccines for Kenny. I suppose some people had religious objections to vaccines, I suppose they were accommodated somehow, but, with my parents, they went to church on Sunday and the rest of the week the pastor was expected to butt out. So I took the shots that they (whoever "they" were) told me to take.

[PassedOut]

 kenberg, on 2022-November-23, 10:45, said:

I have not been closely watching this thread so I just saw this today. I still want to comment.

I gather that you regard your father's skepticism as unrealistic and I agree. But I know many people who put total faith in anything that a doctor tells them and I also regard that as unrealistic. I think that money sometimes plays a role, often not explicitly. I think the greater problem is human nature. Doctors have limited time and limited ability and so caution is needed. They say we should ask questions but when we do they get upset. I could fill pages with stories demonstrating this but I will just give one, I think I mentioned it before. Becky and I both have sleep apnea. She was talking to her doctor, he was saying how great it was that her AHI (a measure of the problem) had gone down, she was saying that the apnea was still affecting her life and she wanted to see how to get it lower. He replied, "Who is the doctor? Oh, I am the doctor". Of course, she now sees a different sleep doctor.

Although his phrasing might have been unusual, the lack of respect for the patient's thoughts is, unfortunately, extremely common. I can give examples going back to my 20s, and now in my 80s the greater need for medical care makes such occurrences a part of everyday life. Extreme cynicism is a form of naivety, just as unquestioning faith is a form of naivety. We have to cope, nothing new about that.

As to childhood days, I was born in 1939 so my childhood years fall between yours and your father's. I started kindergarten in 1943, we were given vaccines in school, they just did it, nobody asked me, I am not sure what would have happened if my parents said no vaccines for Kenny. I suppose some people had religious objections to vaccines, I suppose they were accommodated somehow, but, with my parents, they went to church on Sunday and the rest of the week the pastor was expected to butt out. So I took the shots that they (whoever "they" were) told me to take.

My siblings and I always got our vaccinations in school too, and I still remember how devastating polio was before the Sauk vaccine arrived. All seven of us are up to date on our Covid shots now too, I'm happy to say -- especially as I'm going to be with them for a couple of days starting this afternoon.

And I've had bad experiences similar to yours with both doctors and dentists. My sophomore year in high school (I went to different high schools my freshman, sophomore, and junior years) I developed a toothache. I knew that the father of one of the girls in my class -- I'll call her Sally Jones -- was a dentist, so I went to her dad's office to have it checked.

Dr. Jones said, "This molar will have to come out." He numbed my jaw and began to pull it -- and had a devil of a time getting it loose. He then said that my tooth must not be in as bad shape as he'd thought, but since he had already started pulling it, he'd have to finish the job. It took a while, but he finally pulled it out.

When I started to talk about what happened with a couple of guys at school, they looked incredulous: "You really went to Dr. Jones?! He'll pull all your teeth!"

Constance and I were business partners before we were married, and before we were business partners, Constance was the pretty, outspoken, atheist girl I knew in Mensa. One of the Mensa members in Atlanta was a dentist, so we thought it would be a good idea to try him out. What a mistake! He was so abrasive and insulting to the folks who worked for him that they were always new and always trembling -- not something you want when people are working on your teeth. (We have other Mensa stories too -- a high IQ does not ensure good sense or good judgment.)

I've encountered doctors like the one you described, too, where the doctor's incompetence is exceeded only by his arrogance. Nowadays I do a lot of research before going to any doctor, even though it often takes me a lot longer to schedule an appointment. But I've had good luck when I'm able get referrals from a doctor I really trust.

[pilowsky]

Doctors are just people.
For every Fauci there's a Rand Paul.
Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with 'personality' - Chess taught me that when I was a kid - Bridge reinforced the lesson.

[Winstonm]

 pilowsky, on 2022-November-23, 15:35, said:

Doctors are just people.
For every Fauci there's a Rand Paul.
Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with 'personality' - Chess taught me that when I was a kid - Bridge reinforced the lesson.

As a nurse in hospitals as well as hospice, my experience mirrors your statement. I would only add that it seemed to me the majority of physicians were decent and caring. Still, finding a doctor with whom you trust and mesh is a challenge, just as is finding a good friend or bridge partner.

[thepossum]

 Winstonm, on 2022-November-24, 10:43, said:

As a nurse in hospitals as well as hospice, my experience mirrors your statement. I would only add that it seemed to me the majority of physicians were decent and caring. Still, finding a doctor with whom you trust and mesh is a challenge, just as is finding a good friend or bridge partner.

Which is why so many of us pay to play with a fairly average level robot which is ordinary company at best

On a serious note and with complete respect I am struggling to find a new doctor after the retirement of my previous long term doctor

Without wanting to speak out of turn it may be generational but it appears there is more of a tendency to push unnecessary services and drugs onto us. I actually try to avoid most now, rather than going for a regular friendly non interventionist check up

[johnu]

 pilowsky, on 2022-November-23, 15:35, said:

For every Fauci there's a Rand Paul.

For every Fauci, there's maybe 1000 Rand Paul's. Or maybe 10,000 Rand Paul's. Rand Paul rode his father's coattails to success because it's clear he didn't accomplish his success in politics because of high IQ or common sense. In Paul's defense, maybe he had a stroke or mental condition that can be blamed for his current mental health.

[pilowsky]

 johnu, on 2022-November-24, 19:23, said:

For every Fauci, there's maybe 1000 Rand Paul's. Or maybe 10,000 Rand Paul's. Rand Paul rode his father's coattails to success because it's clear he didn't accomplish his success in politics because of high IQ or common sense. In Paul's defense, maybe he had a stroke or mental condition that can be blamed for his current mental health.

The idea of 10,000 Rand Paul's is a little disturbing.

[Winstonm]

 pilowsky, on 2022-November-24, 19:58, said:

The idea of 10,000 Rand Paul's is a little disturbing.

The idea of one Rand Paul is demoralizing.

[thepossum]

I just looked up Rand Paul
At least he is in politics and not practicing.
So it appears
You would hope that doctors cover a wide range of society

[barmar]

 kenberg, on 2022-November-23, 10:45, said:

I have not been closely watching this thread so I just saw this today. I still want to comment.

I gather that you regard your father's skepticism as unrealistic and I agree. But I know many people who put total faith in anything that a doctor tells them and I also regard that as unrealistic.

Most doctors know more about medicine than I do. Even when they're guessing, the guesses will be based on a medical education, which is more than I have. So why shouldn't I put faith in them? Who should I listen to instead?

Yes, I know some doctors have prescribed medicines because they're getting kickbacks from big pharma. But how am I supposed to know when this might be happening and view it skeptically?

I also put faith in car repair places, even though I've heard of scams there. Again, I can't easily tell better.

They say you should get a second opinion as a check on this. That's just too much work for me.

[thepossum]

My concern in Australia has been the fairly recent change in and growth in different types of practices, clinics etc

I hate to sound sceptical and suggest anything remotely unprofessional but I feel they are not all run with a medical ethic in mind. I could be wrong

Even a lack of decent business ethics too if I may be so bold.