[phoenixmj]

This was a play of the hand question but they provided no explanation of one of the bids. The bidding on the hand went

1D by north, pass by east, 1S by south, 2S by west

What does west's 2s bid mean to you?

Thanks in advance.

[nige1]

phoenixmj "This was a play of the hand question but they provided no explanation of one of the bids. What does west's 2s bid mean to you? "
+++++++++++++++++++++
IMO there are 2 likely agreements, here ...
- Natural is the more popular e.g. ♠ A K J T x x ♥ A ♦ x x x x ♣ A x
- 2-suiter is possible with ♣ probably much better than ♥ e.g. ♠ x x x ♥ A K J x ♦ - ♣ A J T x x x x
With less shape, you might double for T/O e.g. ♠ x x ♥ A K x x ♦ A x ♣ K x x x x
Without such suit disparity, you might overcall 2N e.g. ♠ x x ♥ K Q x x x ♦ x ♣ A K x x x
With better ♥ than ♣ you might overcall 2♦. e.g. ♠ x ♥ A x x x x x ♦ x x ♣ A K Q x

---

[pescetom]

Sounds like you are a victim of poor regulations - in most countries 2♠ would have to be alerted if not natural.

[Vampyr]

pescetom, on 2020-January-30, 13:18, said:

Sounds like you are a victim of poor regulations - in most countries 2♠ would have to be alerted if not natural.

Well yes, but in a case like this it seems normal to ask if there is no such regulation in place.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2020-January-30, 13:18, said:

Sounds like you are a victim of poor regulations - in most countries 2♠ would have to be alerted if not natural.

You can always ask. I think it has merits not to alert bids in suits which opps have shown:
- if it is obvious that it is not natural, the alert is obsolete
- if it is not obvious, there's a good chance that it is undiscussed and that the alert will give UI

Anyway, 2♠ is natural. With a 2-suited hand, you can bid 2NT or double (or bid LHO's suit, if that promised 4+ cards and hence can hardly be natural by you)

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2020-January-30, 15:55, said:

You can always ask. I think it has merits not to alert bids in suits which opps have shown:
- if it is obvious that it is not natural, the alert is obsolete
- if it is not obvious, there's a good chance that it is undiscussed and that the alert will give UI

Anyway, 2♠ is natural. With a 2-suited hand, you can bid 2NT or double (or bid LHO's suit, if that promised 4+ cards and hence can hardly be natural by you)

Well it is for you, we play the two suited meaning although as Nigel says, the natural meaning is more common.

[heart76]

helene_t, on 2020-January-30, 15:55, said:

- if it is not obvious, there's a good chance that it is undiscussed and that the alert will give UI

Always trouble awaiting in such circumstances. A case from a club evening a few months ago:
2D (multi) - (X) - 2H (alerted) - 3H (not alerted)
I opened with a trash hand with 6 hearts and things went crazy. Opponents had apparently not discussed the cue bid (in my book, denies spades and asks for a good stop).
I would not ask now as this wouldn't be other than suggesting to partner what I held. So it went on:
P - 4H (!!) - 4S (!!!) - X and then I had to take it out for a disaster anyway.
TD was summoned and had a hard time making a decision after the not-so-smart 4S from my partner. He made a messy decision which we didn't appeal but a later explanation from more expert TDs was that the partner of the overcaller gave a wrong explanation of 3H as he should have alerted that they didn't have an agreement, and in these cases the TD assumes that the "correct" meaning of the bid is as per bidder's intention.

Bottom line, I don't cue outside the agreements and I always alert as not agreed if partner does.

[ralphparke]

HI
unless you have a specific agreement it is natural, they respond 1 spade on 4 to the eight and you are blown out of the water, otherwise why make the game so difficult for yourself.
any other agreement that you mey devise seems suspect to me.

[Tramticket]

ralphparke, on 2020-January-31, 04:39, said:

HI
unless you have a specific agreement it is natural, they respond 1 spade on 4 to the eight and you are blown out of the water, otherwise why make the game so difficult for yourself.
any other agreement that you mey devise seems suspect to me.

Most of us would have a generic rule that a cue-bid is not natural unless we have a specific agreement that it is natural in a given sequence.

As to this specific sequence, I don't think that it is as clear-cut as you describe. You need to have a very good suit - both in terms of strength and suit quality to want to make a natural call in a suit where the opponents have also made a natural call - particularly as you can make no assumptions of any support from partner. Yes, you might be sitting over RHO's suit, but that will be little help if you have to lead the suit from your own hand. Maybe opponents have responded 1♠ on "four to the eight", but it is dangerous to make that assumption.

So if you agree that you will only want to make a natural over-call with exceptional length and quality, then you are "blown out of the water" much of the time anyway. Having a hand that wants make a natural over-call will be a low-frequency event. Furthermore, the opponents are in a forcing sequence anyway, so passing and bidding later is also an option. I play in England, where many play four-card majors and the opening bid could be made on "four to the eight", but we wouldn't dream of playing (1H), 2H as natural.

There are many possibilities for the cue-bid and Nigel's suggested alternative is a reasonable possibility (we play something similar).

[Cyberyeti]

ralphparke, on 2020-January-31, 04:39, said:

HI
unless you have a specific agreement it is natural, they respond 1 spade on 4 to the eight and you are blown out of the water, otherwise why make the game so difficult for yourself.
any other agreement that you mey devise seems suspect to me.

And you pick up the hand that wants to bid this once in 5 years, as against the cue bid which is several times a year. Even when you do, sometimes you both have 6 and it's a disaster.

[sfi]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-31, 06:26, said:

And you pick up the hand that wants to bid this once in 5 years, as against the cue bid which is several times a year. Even when you do, sometimes you both have 6 and it's a disaster.

Admittedly I've played a lot of bridge this week. But I picked up three hands in the past 8 days where I made a natural overcall, all of which turned out fine. It may not be terribly common, but once every 5 years is a big understatement. And it's easier and safer to show that hand directly than later in the auction.

[Cyberyeti]

sfi, on 2020-January-31, 06:45, said:

Admittedly I've played a lot of bridge this week. But I picked up three hands in the past 8 days where I made a natural overcall, all of which turned out fine. It may not be terribly common, but once every 5 years is a big understatement. And it's easier and safer to show that hand directly than later in the auction.

Are you overcalling on 6 card suits ? I don't remember picking up a hand where I've thought "wish I could bid this naturally" since I had one 10+ years ago and by staying silent we managed to defend in the suit doubled at the 3 level in their 4-3 fit for +800 on a part score board (team mates also defended the same contract for a matching +800 with the opps in the 6-0 fit).

[P_Marlowe]

Natural.

You can Play whatever you like, but the above fits nicely with a meta Agreement,
that we have: If they bid 2-suits, showing 4+ in each, bidding the suit is natural.

More common Scenario:

1NT - (2C (*)) - 2M

(*) Landy 4+/4+ Majors

Similar, if you have someone playing Ekren 2D Opening.

[Tramticket]

P_Marlowe, on 2020-January-31, 07:21, said:

Natural.

You can Play whatever you like, but the above fits nicely with a meta Agreement,
that we have: If they bid 2-suits, showing 4+ in each, bidding the suit is natural.

More common Scenario:

1NT - (2C (*)) - 2M

(*) Landy 4+/4+ Majors

Similar, if you have someone playing Ekren 2D Opening.

I don't like your meta-rule.

How you you play 1♥-(2NT*)-3♣? (* = shows both minors)

They have shown two suits, but I certainly don't play the 3♣ bid as natural.

Either you take a lot of risks making a natural over-call in a suit that they bid naturally, or the bid is low frequency.

[Tramticket]

sfi, on 2020-January-31, 06:45, said:

I picked up three hands in the past 8 days where I made a natural overcall, all of which turned out fine.

This surprises me, to put it mildly.

I can't remember ever having such a hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2020-January-31, 07:33, said:

I don't like your meta-rule.

How you you play 1♥-(2NT*)-3♣? (* = shows both minors)

They have shown two suits, but I certainly don't play the 3♣ bid as natural.

Either you take a lot of risks making a natural over-call in a suit that they bid naturally, or the bid is low frequency.

Agree, we play 3♣ as the inv heart raise with 3♥ competitive

[miamijd]

Natural is 100% standard, for a few reasons:

1. You are behind the player with a four-card major, so if you have something like AJT8xx or even AKJTx with a decent hand, you are well-positioned.

2. You want that suit led.

3. It's pretty easy to show a two-suited hand when the opponents have bid the other suits. X would be 4/4 or 4/5 (5 in the minor); 2NT would be 5/5. If you play sandwich NT, then 1NT is 5/5 and 2NT is 6/5 or better.

The natural 2M overcall in this situation doesn't come up very often, but when it does, it's good to have.

Cheers,
Mike

[smerriman]

miamijd, on 2020-January-31, 13:15, said:

3. It's pretty easy to show a two-suited hand when the opponents have bid the other suits. X would be 4/4 or 4/5 (5 in the minor); 2NT would be 5/5. If you play sandwich NT, then 1NT is 5/5 and 2NT is 6/5 or better.

And you also have the 2♦ cuebid as well.

[msjennifer]

Natural if not alerted. If alerted ,then one can ask for a FULL explanation.We play it as Hearts and the unbid minor.

[nekthen]

heart76, on 2020-January-31, 02:18, said:

Always trouble awaiting in such circumstances. A case from a club evening a few months ago:
2D (multi) - (X) - 2H (alerted) - 3H (not alerted)
I opened with a trash hand with 6 hearts and things went crazy. Opponents had apparently not discussed the cue bid (in my book, denies spades and asks for a good stop).
I would not ask now as this wouldn't be other than suggesting to partner what I held. So it went on:
P - 4H (!!) - 4S (!!!) - X and then I had to take it out for a disaster anyway.
TD was summoned and had a hard time making a decision after the not-so-smart 4S from my partner. He made a messy decision which we didn't appeal but a later explanation from more expert TDs was that the partner of the overcaller gave a wrong explanation of 3H as he should have alerted that they didn't have an agreement, and in these cases the TD assumes that the "correct" meaning of the bid is as per bidder's intention.

Bottom line, I don't cue outside the agreements and I always alert as not agreed if partner does.

Surely this started badly when x went unalerted.