[straube]

Anyone have a good and not overly complicated Precision 2D defense?

I've found very little by Googling. There's an approved defense for a Precision 2H opening (same strength and shapes) that went

dbl-hearts
2S-spades
2N-15-17
3C-strong D overcall
3D-normal D overcall
3M-invitational in the M

which is kind of a clue.

Some of our ideas for 2D defense include....

1)
dbl-a 2D overcall
2M-M
2N-16-18
3C-strong D overcall
3D-preemptive D
3M-5M/5D
4C-5M/5M

or

2)
dbl-a 2D overcall or other strong hands
2M-M
2N-16-18
3C-5M/5M
3D-preemptive D
3M-invitational
4C-5D/5S
4D-5D/5H

or

3)
dbl-strong hands (bal or 1-suited)
2M-M
2N-16-18
3C-diamond overcall
3D-preemptive D
3M-5M/5D
4C-5M/5M

Low frequency problem. Hate reinventing the wheel for it. Anyone like any of these?

[gwnn]

Treat it as a precision 2C opener, since the two are very similar. 2D very often has 5 clubs, so we'll treat clubs as the anchor suit. Obviously, both sides should think about the possibility of majors splitting adversely so should exercise some caution (and also think of defending). But anyway:

Double = takeout of clubs. When minimum, then usually the same hands as opener has, but minors reversed: 4450, 4441, 4351, 3451. Or a strong hand (18+ balanced for example).
3C = Michaels
Rest = natural

If you really want to use 3C as a club overcall (although I guess not - I don't see it suggested ), that's fine too although Michaels seems more useful.

There are pairs who play 2D = 4405/4414 only. I guess in that case, the above is suboptimal, but then I think that will be outweighed by the suboptimality of our opponents' system.

[straube]

gwnn, on 2020-January-29, 01:04, said:

Treat it as a precision 2C opener, since the two are very similar. 2D very often has 5 clubs, so we'll treat clubs as the anchor suit. Obviously, both sides should think about the possibility of majors splitting adversely so should exercise some caution (and also think of defending). But anyway:

Double = takeout of clubs. When minimum, then usually the same hands as opener has, but minors reversed: 4450, 4441, 4351, 3451. Or a strong hand (18+ balanced for example).
3C = Michaels
Rest = natural

If you really want to use 3C as a club overcall (although I guess not - I don't see it suggested ), that's fine too although Michaels seems more useful.

There are pairs who play 2D = 4405/4414 only. I guess in that case, the above is suboptimal, but then I think that will be outweighed by the suboptimality of our opponents' system.

I really like this use of double. Thanks a lot. One could also combine dbl with strong meanings. I found a post....

"Style-wise you should not be so aggressive about coming in, you are not likely to cause them to judge badly, and quite likely to cause them to judge very well if you bid something you can't make.

In terms of bids here is something quite simple.

X = 13-15 balanced or any very strong hand (first double by responder is takeout/responsive)
2M = natural (3C is a cuebid, in general clubs = cuebid)
2N = 16-18 balanced (systems on, 3S shows diamonds)
3C = some kind of good diamond overcall, I would say x Axx AQJxxxx Kx is a minimum
3D = normal to weakish diamond overcall
3M = natural, intermediate
4C = majors
4D = diamonds + major"

and that 3C as good diamonds seems to be a recurring theme. Maybe...

X=takeout of clubs or other strong hands
2M=M
.....3C=transfer advance
.....3D=transfer advance
.....3M-1=good raise
2N=16-18 bal
3C=good diamond overcall (x Axx AQJxxxx Kx or better)
3D=normal to weak diamond overcall (stretch overcall)
3M=natural, intermediate
3N-natural, likely running diamonds and stoppers
4C-D/M
.....what now?
4D-M/M

Could almost just give up on showing strong Michaels. Seems very rare after a 2D open. Maybe
4C-S/D
4D-H/D

[straube]

dbl=takeout of clubs or other strong hands (mostly balanced)
2M=natural
2N=16-18 bal
3C-good diamond overcall
.....3D-nf
..........3M-stopper ask
..........3N-club stopper ask
..........4M-5M
3D-normal to stretch diamond overcall
3M-natural, intermediate
3N-to play
4C-Michaels
4D-preempt
4M-to play

[gwnn]

I'd probably prefer keeping Michaels as 3C and move strong diamondy hands into X, but I like your scheme too. The idea of having the strong diamonds hands double first is to not let opps off the hook and allow partner to make penalty doubles. But of course once you have like 7 semi-solid diamonds, you don't want to sit for those anyway, so I can see the advantage too.

[Kungsgeten]

I like gwnn's suggestion, its simple and seems effective. An alternative approach could be to use some kind of power double (trying to extract penalties). Maybe like this:

Dbl = 15+ NT or very strong unbalanced.
2M = Natural.
2NT = 5+D and 4H.
3C = 5+D and 4S.
3D = Natural.
3H = 5+H and 4(+)S.
4C = 5-5 diamonds + major, GF.
4D = 5-5 majors, GF.

[gwnn]

Kungsgeten, on 2020-January-30, 02:26, said:

I like gwnn's suggestion, its simple and seems effective. An alternative approach could be to use some kind of power double (trying to extract penalties). Maybe like this:

Dbl = 15+ NT or very strong unbalanced.
2M = Natural.
2NT = 5+D and 4H.
3C = 5+D and 4S.
3D = Natural.
3H = 5+H and 4(+)S.
4C = 5-5 diamonds + major, GF.
4D = 5-5 majors, GF.

It seems like I'm doubling more often than you (I often double when you bid 2NT or 3C and sometimes when you bid 3D; you double when I bid 2NT) so I can extract more penalties. But I see what your scheme is trying to accomplish too of course.

(edit: of course this is not literally my scheme. I learned it several years ago on the forums I think.)

[rbforster]

I seem to remember the “simple” defense to precision 2D was “double and lead trump”. As such, a 14+ balanced hand or similar probably wants to start with a double and aim for penalties. Furthermore, with bad breaks in most non-♦ suits, overcalls should be made more cautiously and on better/longer suits, ie for 2M overcalls.

[gwnn]

rbforster, on 2020-January-30, 12:26, said:

I seem to remember the “simple” defense to precision 2D was “double and lead trump”. As such, a 14+ balanced hand or similar probably wants to start with a double and aim for penalties. Furthermore, with bad breaks in most non-♦ suits, overcalls should be made more cautiously and on better/longer suits, ie for 2M overcalls.

if only someone had mentioned bad breaks in this thread before.

[straube]

I generated some hands last night. I never saw a Michaels hand. Lots of diamond hands. Fewer club takeout hands than I thought but still a significant number. Lots of awkward hands like a 1444 or whatever. Don't think I saw any invitational with a major hands but one or two preempt in a major hand.
No solid diamond hands needing a stop.

Maybe
dbl-club takeout or strong hands
2M-M
2N-16-18
3C-good diamond
.....3D-no thanks
..........3M-4/6?
3D-a good preempt of diamonds
3M-goodish 5M/5D?
4C-Michaels
4D-preempt

[chasetb]

Sorry for bringing this thread back to life, but in the Kokish-Kraft Weak NT system, here's what he wrote up:
DBL -> D, but unsuitable for 3D overcall or 2NT
2NT -> 16-19 (3C=Stayman; 3R=transfers; 3S=D)
2M --> NAT, constructive
3C* -> 5+H/5+S, strong
3M --> NAT, strong
3NT -> Strong BAL or based on long-suit: (advance as in other unclear 3NT situations)
PRE -> Likely to be an 8-card suit as opener ALWAYS has 4/5C
4D --> PRE

Personally, I like DBL to be either 13-15 balanced or 20+ any. I also like to better define the jump to 3M to be like 14-17 HCP, 6+ suit. I have thought about using 3♣ as a good overcall in Diamonds, and 3♦ as the weaker version, but have only very rarely played against Polish or Precision pairs so it has never come up. Also, I think I would prefer using 4♣ as both Majors and 4♦ as Leaping Michaels as we have L.M. in our system notes.

The reason I replied was I had an auction last night that went (2♦) - 2NT - (P) and 4th hand was pretty weak with 6 Diamonds. 3rd hand made a sneaky Pass - it turns out that 2NT goes down 2, both 3♦ and 3♠ (by them) make, and 4♦ gets doubled VUL. I know that it's only one hand, but it makes me wonder if 3♣ should be like Gladiator, and be a Puppet to 3♦.

[Zelandakh]

X = takeout of clubs
2M = nat (constructive) overcall
2N = nat with club stop
3C = weak with ♦; or strong with both majors
3D = nat (constructive) overcall
3M = nat, preemptive
3N = long running ♦ with stops
4♣ = strong with ♦ and a major
4♦ = nat, preemptive