[straube]

We open a nebulous 1D to show 10-15 and 0+ diamonds. It basically handles 11-13 balanced, 5/5 minors and other hands that lack a 5M or 6m.

Looking for meanings for rdbl etc for the two auctions of 1D dbl P P as wel as 1D P P dbl. Best guess is rdbl should promise 4S. Idk. Any suggestions?


I'm also looking at interference over our 2C (10-15, 6 clubs) opening....particularly what 2N should mean. In the past we've used it as Lebensohl, showing usually a bad raise.
I feel like it's important to have both good and bad raises to the 3L but if it's Lebensohl and we play negative doubles we sometimes wind up with redundancies.

For example....

2C (2H) dbl P 3C P 3S ?
2C (2H) 3S ?
2C (2H) 2S P 3C P 3S?
2C (2H) 2N P 3C P 3S?

Four routes here to 3S. But we want WJS, invitational 6S, forcing 6S

[Kungsgeten]

After 1D-Dbl-P-P then maybe pass with 5D, redouble with a balanced hand, bid 1M with 4M and 5C? Not sure though. Over 1D-P-P-Dbl then I guess pass shows the balanced hand, or a hand which could stand 1D being passed out. Bidding 1M could be 4M and 5 clubs, and maybe Rdbl as three-suited short diamonds? I guess it all depends on how light you respond etc.

Over 2C-(2X) we play negative constructive free bids at the two level and GF bids at the three-level. 2NT is INV+ raise of clubs. Double + new suit is GF but more flexible than bidding the suit at the three level directly. Jump shifts to the three level are GF.

[straube]

Thanks. I like 1D dbl P P rdbl as balanced. Maybe 1H is 4H/5C or 4414 ? 1S would have to be 4S/5C?

It would be nice if 1D P P dbl rdbl promised 5 diamonds, pass could be bal and 1H and 1S could be as above. That would be symmetric, but I wonder how often we want to play in 1D redoubled. Do you think redoubled as 5D makes sense? I imagine most opponents who have talked about this would say that passing this redoubled contract shows willingness to defend it.

So you're basically using NFBs for 2C interference. Is your double negative or does it just create a force through 3C? And your 2C promises only 5, right?

I've thought about having 2C (2H) dbl promise invitational values and perhaps not spades (but opener could rebid 2S and not be dropped) and this would mean that responder could invite in clubs simply by doubling and then rebidding 3C. But after 2C (2S) I would want double to be negative and actually promise hearts.

I'm also remembering what Adam had said about 2C-2M as nf, that it is seldom right to play 2M because often opener will want to raise or the partnership belongs in clubs.

[straube]

1D dbl P P
.....P-5 diamonds
.....rdbl-bal
..........bid suits up the line to find a 4-3 fit
.....1H-4414, 4405, 1435, 4441
.....1S-4315, 4135, 4144

1D P P dbl
.....P-bal
..........bid suits up the line to find a 4-3 fit
.....rdbl-5 diamonds
.....1H-4414, 4405, 1435, 4441
.....1S-4315, 4135, 4144

Seems like reserving a bid for 5D/5C would make sense. Suggestions?

[straube]

Still wondering about 1D P P dbl rdbl

Should rdbl show 5D or balanced or something else?

A new question about our 2D opening which shows 5-10 and 6D

2D (3C) ?

What should double show? Negative or thrump? GI+ or GF?

If we use a negative double should it promise both majors or just one? If just one then 2D (3C) dbl P 3M has to be forcing or opener is endplayed into bidding 4M in a non-fit.

Let's say it's a Thrump double....GF which denies or tends to deny a stopper. Then what should the rebid 3D mean?

[awm]

You need to decide what pass from responder meant in these auctions. For me, pass implies some degree of diamond fit, since I would bid a four card major in preference to passing most of the time. Responder will have one of:

4-5 diamonds
a balanced hand with no 4-major (if 1d was doubled also not 3325)

After 1d-x-p-p:

Pass = 4-5 diamonds
XX = balanced with 2-3 diamonds and not 5 clubs
1M = 4M with 4-5clubs unbalanced
2c = 5 clubs balanced

After 1d-p-p-x

XX = balanced 2 diamonds
Pass = balanced 3-4 diamonds
1M = 4M and 0-1 diamonds
1nt = 4+/4+ minors
2c = 5 clubs (332)
2d = 5 diamonds (332)
3c = 5+/5+ minors

[straube]

Thanks a lot. We're getting read for a Regional and so much interference stuff to iron out.

[Kungsgeten]

Quote

So you're basically using NFBs for 2C interference. Is your double negative or does it just create a force through 3C? And your 2C promises only 5, right?

I've thought about having 2C (2H) dbl promise invitational values and perhaps not spades (but opener could rebid 2S and not be dropped) and this would mean that responder could invite in clubs simply by doubling and then rebidding 3C. But after 2C (2S) I would want double to be negative and actually promise hearts.

I'm also remembering what Adam had said about 2C-2M as nf, that it is seldom right to play 2M because often opener will want to raise or the partnership belongs in clubs.

Yes, we play NFB at the 2-level after 2C interference. Double is negative and doesn't promise a rebid. Yes our 2C only promises 5. If only 5 opener will have (41)35 or 4-4-0-5.

The problem about doubling with a fit after 2C (2H) is if fourth hand raises. I like being able to show support immediately.

In your system opener will be 6-4 if holding a major. My guess is that opener will seldom let the opponents play 2M when holding this hand (unless their major is the major he holds). Opener will often reopen with a double? Because of that it might make sense for you to play the negative double as INV+ and maybe not 4 cards in unbid major? I don't know what is best really.

Good luck in the regionals!

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2020-January-22, 09:59, said:

Good luck in the regionals!

Thank you!

So the next thing I'm looking at is 1M X auctions. I think we're playing transfers starting with 1N. I've never seen a good writeup about what happens over that. Is opener supposed to always accept the transfer? When would he not? And supposing he accepted the transfer, I guess a new suit by responder is forcing and natural, but not necessarily to game? The problem here is there is no cue bid to establish a GF.

The way we're playing it, if responder wants to force game starting with a transfer, he's likely to have a 1-suited hand (else he would redouble).

I've also seen some different opinions on what a transfer and then a correction to 2M should mean. I think Meckwell play it as fit and lead direct. Maybe others play it as just the way to compete with a 2-fit.

Also, say opener shows spades and you have Qx Axxx Kxxx xx which is enough to want to compete but not to claim the hand. How do you find a red suit fit when opener has one? Without that double you would bid 1N and then pass a red suit rebid or correct to 2S. Now you seemingly can't do that and play transfers at the same time.

[nullve]

straube, on 2020-January-23, 14:23, said:

So the next thing I'm looking at is 1M X auctions.

Not a serious suggestion, but I think

1♠-(X)-XX = "hearts"

is interesting, because it could solve problems that may exist after

1♠-(P)-1N*

* NF, SF or F1

when Responder has 5+ H.

Something analoguous to Kaplan Inversion is also possible, e.g.:

1♠-(X)-XX = "4- H"
1♠-(X)-1N = "5+ H".

[straube]

I like that out-of-the-box thinking.

I almost want to stay in system. I know the likelihood of game is less after the double and that transfers put doubler on lead, but there's a lot of downside switching from the two-barreled invite structure that we use now to one much less familiar. I suppose we could still preserve redouble and pass (as potentially "I've got a secret") or use rdbl as you suggest.

Any thoughts awm? What do you think about staying in system here?

[rbforster]

straube, on 2020-January-23, 14:23, said:

Thank you!

So the next thing I'm looking at is 1M X auctions. I think we're playing transfers starting with 1N. I've never seen a good writeup about what happens over that. Is opener supposed to always accept the transfer? When would he not? And supposing he accepted the transfer, I guess a new suit by responder is forcing and natural, but not necessarily to game? The problem here is there is no cue bid to establish a GF.

The way we're playing it, if responder wants to force game starting with a transfer, he's likely to have a 1-suited hand (else he would redouble).

I've also seen some different opinions on what a transfer and then a correction to 2M should mean. I think Meckwell play it as fit and lead direct. Maybe others play it as just the way to compete with a 2-fit.

Also, say opener shows spades and you have Qx Axxx Kxxx xx which is enough to want to compete but not to claim the hand. How do you find a red suit fit when opener has one? Without that double you would bid 1N and then pass a red suit rebid or correct to 2S. Now you seemingly can't do that and play transfers at the same time.

Start transfers with XX as suggestion / transfer to NT, where opener can bid something else if he has good shape. After 1N, you can give meanings to new suits (two suiters DONT style?) as well as returning to 2M (maybe 3M invite?).
Pass followed by any action from responder shows the strong misfit hand, ie X is penalty, NT bids are natural.
With transfers to a two level suit, opener will accept if he doesn’t have anything exceptional to bid, ie good 5/5 or good 6+ suit rebid. Then responder can bid 2N or self raise (invite), or return to 2M (weak fit with lead direction, or however you want to play it), or bid a new suit as a natural GF.

[straube]

rbforster, on 2020-January-23, 16:03, said:

Start transfers with XX as suggestion / transfer to NT, where opener can bid something else if he has good shape. After 1N, you can give meanings to new suits (two suiters DONT style?) as well as returning to 2M (maybe 3M invite?).
Pass followed by any action from responder shows the strong misfit hand, ie X is penalty, NT bids are natural.
With transfers to a two level suit, opener will accept if he doesn’t have anything exceptional to bid, ie good 5/5 or good 6+ suit rebid. Then responder can bid 2N or self raise (invite), or return to 2M (weak fit with lead direction, or however you want to play it), or bid a new suit as a natural GF.

A lot of upside here. I do like involving responder with the constructive hand range. Otherwise opener won't know to compete for the bid. It would be nice, however, to grab NT before the opponents can.

[straube]

Looking at 1D interference now. Think we'll adopt most of the IMprecision method there. I have a couple of questions about it.

1D X 1S suggests a 1N rebid but it can be a NFB

1D (1H) 1S is takeout of hearts or a NFB in clubs. Since it denies 4S it sounds like either both minors or just clubs.

What about having these 1S bids show diamonds instead? Curious the reasoning.

1D X 1S shows diamonds or minors
1D X 2C is NFB clubs

1D (1H) 1S shows diamonds or minors
1D (1H) 2C is NFB clubs

I think Meckwell used 2C as NFB and 2D as a force, but I'm not sure what suit (if any) 2D was showing or frankly any of the rest of it. By far the IMprecision document has the most complete interference structure I've been able to find for the nebulous diamond.

[awm]

We don’t use NFB (except by passed hand) instead preferring transfers. This allows us to show good shapely hands by transfer and then bid. After 1D-(1H):

X = 4+S (exactly inv if 6+S)
1S = clubs
1NT = natural
2c = diamonds
2d = 3244 or similar (t/o without 4S, NF)
2h = 6+S weak or GF
2s = stopper ask in hearts
2nt = natural invite
3m = preemptive natural 6+
3h = transfer to 3nt

There’s one “unbiddable” hand: balanced without four spades or a five card minor or 3244 or a heart stop or strength to bid 2S (stopper ask). That’s pretty specific! We decided to allow a 1S bid when this hand includes four clubs but to pass when 3433/3343/3442/2443 so that opener can always prefer clubs with four after responders 1S bid. Of course you could put all these into 1S too (making it basically transfer to notrump) or require five clubs for 1S and have a few more hands forced to pass.

I should also note that 1S/2C do not actually deny four spades. We bid our suits in length order in this auction when strong, so a GF hand with 4S-5m starts by showing the minor. This tends to make continuations easier especially after a mild raise of hearts. Of course when less-than-GF we would double.

[straube]

I'd been thinking

X-4-5S or 6S GI
1S-4+D
1N-natural
2C-NFB
2D-C, GI+
etc-same

Now if opener has a hand that can't rebid 1N or support diamonds, it's likely a hand with 5C.

I'm sure you'd rejected that approach for some reason. My guess is that you want an immediate bid to show takeout shape of hearts since that hand pattern is going to be frequent. Is that the reason?

So 2D as 3244 or similar promises at least 3 spades and 4 of each minor? And 1D (1H) 2S handles patterns that don't have a 5m or stop.

Also assume 1D (1H) 1S P 2C P 2H is not GF but invitational/stopper ask.

Thanks a lot for helping.

[awm]

In principle 2d can also be a weak hand with both minors (like 1255) and correct 2s to 3c. Opener won’t normally bid spades past the two level.

[straube]

ok, that clears up a lot.

[straube]

I think our 1D interference is 100% based on IMprecision now.

Any agreements over 1D P 1M (dbl) or 1D P 1H (1S)?

I imagine support redouble or double. Pass is 2? If opener bids out does that deny 2?

[straube]

awm, on 2020-January-15, 09:12, said:

On a weak hand you always have this 5-card suit problem. But NFB give you a problem with invitational hands. Say the auction starts 1d-(2c) and you have five hearts and eleven points. In NFB you can double, but then over 2s from opener you probably have to bid 2nt (basically treating hearts as four) or you can bid 2h but will have to accept that opener passes on singleton quite often (basically treating hearts as six). With forcing free bids you bid 2h (forcing showing five and F1). Even GF hands have this issue somewhat; for example an auction like 1d-(2c)-X-(3c)-3s leaves you unable to show your five card heart suit effectively whereas forcing freebids lead to an easier auction.

The issue with invites comes from the range. Basically, there are hands where game opposite 11 is good but the three level opposite 7 is scary. By splitting between 7-11 vs 12+ you give opener a problem when he has 14-15 (enough for game opposite 11 but dubious to bid higher vs 7). Forcing free bids split 7-9 vs 10+ which reduces the problem because of the tighter range on weak hands as well as removing the problem for balanced hands (since the otherwise annoying balanced 16 opened 1nt).

If you wanted to incorporate NFBs in a strong club system, how would you go about doing so? Meckwell does it and they don't promise 12 hcps with their 5-cd majors like IMprecision pretty much does. So you have a better starting place.

Maybe the range of 7-11 is too wide. But your double-barrelled invites have the medium range as 12 to bad 14? and the next lower range is good 10 to bad 12? So maybe the NFB should be 11-13? But frequent 5-cd suits?

So opener's rebids might be....
.....P-2-fit min, 3-fit-very min
.....2M-extras, forcing
..........2N-min, no fit
..........3M-2-fit, min
.....2N-min, no fit, not 6M