[phoenixmj]

---

We play a strong 1NT - 15-17. The 2S bid was natural. We play Lebensohl but we are relatively new to it.

North has 9 HCP and a long diamond suit. North has no spade stopper, and 2 doubletons. So, NT seems like a bad idea.

What should north bid now?


Any and all help is appreciated.


Let me add an additional question - what would the correct/best bid be if we played transfer Lebensohl?

Thx

[RayFink]

phoenixmj, on 2020-January-01, 20:51, said:

---

We play a strong 1NT - 15-17. The 2S bid was natural. We play Lebensohl but we are relatively new to it.

North has 9 HCP and a long diamond suit. North has no spade stopper, and 2 doubletons. So, NT seems like a bad idea.

What should north bid now?


Any and all help is appreciated.

IMO this hand is not worth a GF, and there is no invitational sequence available.
So, 2NT to force 3♣ from opener, then 3♦ to play.

Immediate 3♦ would be forcing.

[helene_t]

I think I would just bid 3nt (or 2nt then 3nt if you play slow shows).

Partner often has jxx or better in spades. Otherwise, rho might underlead akxxxx.

[dsLawsd]

Those are the choices. So who are your opponents and what event are you in?
Whatever I do will be wrong a fair per cent of the time, so what is my best chance to max my score?
I think 3♦, the slight overbid is the best since we can still stop in 4, bid 5 or if partner has the right hand 3 NT.
But my style is to overbid a little which partner knows.
Naturally if we have a very good score I might just go with 2 NT.
Partner still has a choice to not bid 3♣ in some cases.

[nekthen]

dsLawsd, on 2020-January-02, 03:46, said:

Those are the choices. So who are your opponents and what event are you in?
Whatever I do will be wrong a fair per cent of the time, so what is my best chance to max my score?
I think 3♦, the slight overbid is the best since we can still stop in 4, bid 5 or if partner has the right hand 3 NT.
But my style is to overbid a little which partner knows.
Naturally if we have a very good score I might just go with 2 NT.
Partner still has a choice to not bid 3♣ in some cases.

If i'm playing lebensohl properly, there is no circumstance that permits me to pass 2N

I would bid 3N (denying a stopper), partner should pull to 4♣ with no stopper, I correct to 4♦

[Cyberyeti]

I can't have this hand (I opened 2♦) so it's difficult to comment because partner will also draw the conclusion I can't have this hand type in the subsequent auction. There is also pretty much no hand I can have worth a forcing 3♦ bid that I didn't open either 2♦ or 1♦, so the forcing bid would be either a 9-10 count with 6 really bad diamonds or a hand with 6 diamonds and 2 aces with nothing else as we don't open weak 2s with 2 aces, or just possibly a 1354 10 count.

That said the fact that you're a passed hand means partner will not expect the earth for the "force", and if you open 1 fairly light as we do, it's quite a safe bid.

[pescetom]

Like Cyberyeti, I can't have this hand.
If I could, then we would still prefer Rubensohl and so it would be 3♣ INV+ transfer to diamonds here.
I think this bid coincides in Transfer lebensohl, although 3♥ and 3♠ would not.

[Tramticket]

For us, Lebensohl is off once you elected to pass as opener.

Your choices are 3♦ - competitive, 2NT natural and to play or 3NT. I might bid 3NT vulnerable at IMPs, but I think that 3♦ is fine at match points.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2020-January-02, 06:25, said:

For us, Lebensohl is off once you elected to pass as opener.

Your choices are 3♦ - competitive, 2NT natural and to play or 3NT. I might bid 3NT vulnerable at IMPs, but I think that 3♦ is fine at match points.

We play weak NT, so the two ranges shift to (at least semi) inv/to play rather than truly forcing, opposite 15-17 or similar it's not unreasonable to keep it.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-02, 07:01, said:

We play weak NT, so the two ranges shift to (at least semi) inv/to play rather than truly forcing, opposite 15-17 or similar it's not unreasonable to keep it.

Yes, like you we play a weak no trump and open pretty aggressively and a passed hand would never have the values to force to game. Even opposite a strong no trump with a minimum 15 HCP (often a minimum 14 in practice) it seems unlikely that you would want to force to game - unless playing unusually sound openings.

[ibm386]

I would bid Dbl take-out and after 2h or 2nt I would bid 3 dia for pass or 3NT

[phoenixmj]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-02, 04:27, said:

I can't have this hand (I opened 2♦) so it's difficult to comment because partner will also draw the conclusion I can't have this hand type in the subsequent auction. There is also pretty much no hand I can have worth a forcing 3♦ bid that I didn't open either 2♦ or 1♦, so the forcing bid would be either a 9-10 count with 6 really bad diamonds or a hand with 6 diamonds and 2 aces with nothing else as we don't open weak 2s with 2 aces, or just possibly a 1354 10 count.

That said the fact that you're a passed hand means partner will not expect the earth for the "force", and if you open 1 fairly light as we do, it's quite a safe bid.

We play flannery so 2D open has a different meaning. I chose to pass, although I have been known to sometimes open 3d with 6 because of the flannery restriction.

[miamijd]

Back to the OP's question.

As pointed out above, your choices are pretty much (A) 3D (game force); (B) 2NT then 3D (drop); © 2NT then 3NT (showing a spade stop); and (D) 3NT, denying a spade stop.

I tend to prefer slight overbids to slight underbids, so I would eliminate (B). As between the other bids, I would go with 3D. Partner can bid 3NT with a spade stop or ask for a partial stop with 3S (with a full stop, you probably bid 2NT and then 3NT). © is a lie that may work out; (D) you may regret if partner has something like Jxx in spades (or even Kxx and decides that one stop isn't enough).

But this one is a coin flip.

Cheers,
Mike

[fromageGB]

With one partner I would have passed, so would be in this situation, with others I would have opened 2♦.

If this is my hand, I do want to play in 3NT if partner has a spade trick. (1NT is practically never 14 hcp in practice, because we play twalsh with 12-14 and as twalsh is so much better at getting to the right contract with 12-14, a poor 15 is more likely to be downgraded than a good 14 upgraded.)

The question then becomes methods. Playing Lebensohl, the problem with 3♦ forcing is that opener does not know of your spade guard, and may not cooperate, as miamijd points out.
If you play transfers, then it depends on what a double means.

Playing X as asking for a 4 card heart fit, you can simply here bid 3♥ as ostensibly a transfer to their suit. Opener's normal continuation would be 3NT with stops, 4-something as a rescue denying a spade trick, and 3♠, completing the transfer, with a guard needing help, and then over this I can bid 3NT. Over 4♣ I correct to 4♦ to play. This is my method with one partner.

Playing X as an "I would have bid that ie minor suit stayman", as I do with another partner, I am a bit stuck. This method is useful when you have both minors, but a "transfer to their suit" is the method of finding a 4-4 heart fit, and I can't do that. With this partner I think I would bid 3♣ compulsory transfer to 3♦ and follow it with a 3♠ bid which he should interpret as a request to fall back to diamonds if he does not have a spade guard for 3NT.

I just pray his spade guard is not Kx !

[ruleof15]

There is no problem if you play all 3 responses to opening 1NT show a 6-card suit headed by AKQ. A transfer would indicate less. With 2♠ transfers to ♣ and 2NT transferring to ♦ with the intermediate bid indicating the holding of 2 of the top 3 honors. This would require going through 2♣ to get to 2NT with later hands.

[mikeh]

Pity the poor OP. He has a difficult decision to make, and seeks advice. What does he get? A series of posts pointing out that the posters would never have this problem, because they would have opened, or (as in the last post) a home-grown method that makes little sense: if you need AKQxxx to make a natural call after passing, having partner open a strong NT and see an overcall, you're going to be waiting an awfully long time to make that call.

As it happens, I would have opened in first seat, but so what? The OP doesn't use a weak 2D, and in that he has a great deal of company. I'd venture to suggest that the weak 2D is played by a minority of good partnerships. That's not, btw, an endorsement of Flannery, but the point is that most decent players in the world could find themselves in this situation.

As for what to do: if I am playing imps I am definitely bidding 3N. If partner has a spade stopper, I'm happy to play game, even though it comes with no guarantees, and I am willing to push to 4D if partner can only muster a 4C call. 4D is not forcing here: it is unlikely, to the point of implausibility, that I offered 3N as a contract with game force values and a stiff or short spade, so partner will let me play 4D.

At mps, the equations are different, especially when vulnerable (when vulnerable, the odds favour relatively low percentage games. At white, they don't but NV undertricks aren't much of a concern. 3N -2 NV is not a big deal at imps, if the alternative was, say, 4D -1. But at mps, 4D-1 is sometimes a LOT better than 3N-2).

This is a soft hand, in terms of honour cards, so I am tempted to swing low, and just lebensohl my way to 3D.

As for transfer lebensohl, I do play that a transfer to a major is invitational or better, but I don't play that way in a minor, since 5m is a long way off. So I'd bid, with my partnership versions of transfer lebensohl (or reubensohl), 3C.

At imps, it would be useful to be able to bid 3C transfer and then 3N. That should clearly suggest doubt, else one would have bid 3N immediately....as a passed hand one cannot be interested in slam. However, I doubt that any but the most experienced, detail-oriented partnerships have discussed this. Since I am not throwing that sequence at a partner without prior discussion, I bid 3N.

At mps, as noted, I settle for 3D anyway.

[dsLawsd]

nekthen, on 2020-January-02, 04:14, said:

If i'm playing lebensohl properly, there is no circumstance that permits me to pass 2N

I would bid 3N (denying a stopper), partner should pull to 4♣ with no stopper, I correct to 4♦

Me also. But I allow partner to bid other than 3 Clubs with the "right hand" (needs a firm agreement).
On this specific auction, I would use Max Hardy's method which is to double showing a 2 NT raise = 8or 9 HCP.

I also like 2 diamonds weak, but not in first seat. Too much in other suits to "suit" me...

Rubensohl may be the right thing to evolve into??

[pescetom]

dsLawsd, on 2020-January-02, 15:31, said:

Rubensohl may be the right thing to evolve into??

I think so too, especially as OP is new to lebehsohl and interested in transfer methods.

[ozjess]

phoenixmj, on 2020-January-01, 20:51, said:

---

North should bid 2NT which forces partner to bid 3C (pass or correct). North then corrects to 3D to play.


We play a strong 1NT - 15-17. The 2S bid was natural. We play Lebensohl but we are relatively new to it.

North has 9 HCP and a long diamond suit. North has no spade stopper, and 2 doubletons. So, NT seems like a bad idea.

What should north bid now?


Any and all help is appreciated.


Let me add an additional question - what would the correct/best bid be if we played transfer Lebensohl?

Thx

[ruleof15]

mikeh, on 2020-January-02, 15:25, said:

Pity the poor OP. He has a difficult decision to make, and seeks advice. What does he get? A series of posts pointing out that the posters would never have this problem, because they would have opened, or (as in the last post) a home-grown method that makes little sense: if you need AKQxxx to make a natural call after passing, having partner open a strong NT and see an overcall, you're going to be waiting an awfully long time to make that call.

As it happens, I would have opened in first seat, but so what? The OP doesn't use a weak 2D, and in that he has a great deal of company. I'd venture to suggest that the weak 2D is played by a minority of good partnerships. That's not, btw, an endorsement of Flannery, but the point is that most decent players in the world could find themselves in this situation.

As for what to do: if I am playing imps I am definitely bidding 3N. If partner has a spade stopper, I'm happy to play game, even though it comes with no guarantees, and I am willing to push to 4D if partner can only muster a 4C call. 4D is not forcing here: it is unlikely, to the point of implausibility, that I offered 3N as a contract with game force values and a stiff or short spade, so partner will let me play 4D.

At mps, the equations are different, especially when vulnerable (when vulnerable, the odds favour relatively low percentage games. At white, they don't but NV undertricks aren't much of a concern. 3N -2 NV is not a big deal at imps, if the alternative was, say, 4D -1. But at mps, 4D-1 is sometimes a LOT better than 3N-2).

This is a soft hand, in terms of honour cards, so I am tempted to swing low, and just lebensohl my way to 3D.

As for transfer lebensohl, I do play that a transfer to a major is invitational or better, but I don't play that way in a minor, since 5m is a long way off. So I'd bid, with my partnership versions of transfer lebensohl (or reubensohl), 3C.

At imps, it would be useful to be able to bid 3C transfer and then 3N. That should clearly suggest doubt, else one would have bid 3N immediately....as a passed hand one cannot be interested in slam. However, I doubt that any but the most experienced, detail-oriented partnerships have discussed this. Since I am not throwing that sequence at a partner without prior discussion, I bid 3N.

At mps, as noted, I settle for 3D anyway.