[gwnn]

Suppose you play Multi-Landy over 1NT:

1NT-?
X = 4M5m
2♣ = majors
2♦ = 6+ cards in an unknown major
2M = 5M4m

What do you do on 6M4m hands (not 65, specifically 6M4m)? Don't answer "depends on my agreement" - I am asking you what your preferred agreement/tendency is!

(A while ago, my p overcalled 2H on Axx AKxxxx - Bxxx and caught me with a 4144. That distribution should be a "winning case" but in fact 2H was still a better contract than 3C since I had the stiff queen of hearts. I have a strong preference for 2♦ but I'm not sure if that's based on anecdotes like this one or actual bridge judgement.

In fact I prefer 2M natural with 2D = natural or maybe 2D = weak hand with a major, but that's beside the point.)

[Tramticket]

I would only treat this as two-suited if the suit quality in the major was awful.

[pescetom]

Depends but usually not. I am more likely to bid 5-4 if the minor is better quality and if the major is spades.

It's a happy problem in any case, my only real concerns with Multilandy are 6-card minors and the memory load for new partners (I'm tempted to switch to Suction which is a lot simpler and looks like fun, too).

[mikestar13]

Tramticket, on 2020-January-30, 08:30, said:

I would only treat this as two-suited if the suit quality in the major was awful.

Also I'd want the minor to be reasonable. If I chose to intervene at all at favorable vulnerability with ♠x ♥Jxxxxx♦Jxxx ♣xx, I'm bidding 2♦.

[nige1]

gwnn, on 2020-January-30, 08:19, said:

Suppose you play Multi-Landy over 1NT:

1NT-?
X = 4M5m
2♣ = majors
2♦ = 6+ cards in an unknown major
2M = 5M4m

What do you do on 6M4m hands (not 65, specifically 6M4m)? Don't answer "depends on my agreement" - I am asking you what your preferred agreement/tendency is!

(A while ago, my p overcalled 2H on Axx AKxxxx - Bxxx and caught me with a 4144. That distribution should be a "winning case" but in fact 2H was still a better contract than 3C since I had the stiff queen of hearts. I have a strong preference for 2♦ but I'm not sure if that's based on anecdotes like this one or actual bridge judgement.

In fact I prefer 2M natural with 2D = natural or maybe 2D = weak hand with a major, but that's beside the point.)

Eric Crowhurst proposed the first version of this convention. Except double was for penalty and 2♦ showed any single-suiter.
I like Gwnn's version. with double being Raptor or penalty.
IMO with 6M 4m, your choice between 2♦ and 2M, depends on relative suit-quality, and scoring-method (at pairs, tend to suppress the minor). Thus ...
- With ♠ x ♥ Q x x x x x ♦ A x ♣ K Q J x, you might overcall 2♥.
- With ♠ A x x ♥ A K x x x x ♦- ♣ J x x x (Gwnn's example) you might prefer 2♦.
Typo corrected - Thanks to Pescatom

This post has been edited by nige1: 2020-January-31, 10:37

[Vampyr]

nige1, on 2020-January-30, 11:46, said:

Eric Crowhurst proposed the first version of this convention. Except double was for penalty and 2♦ showed any single-suiter.
I like Gwnn's version. with double being Raptor or penalty.

I think against a weak NTit is very useful to have the double as penalty. Similarly, there is a much greater possibility that game is on your way, so it makes sense to be able to answer a 2NT enquiry multi-style. Well, I think so anyway.

[gwnn]

This is another post that reminds me why I stopped posting on the forums. And I hinted that I will stop soon, so here I am, I am stopping right now. (oh well apparently no facepalm emojis.) Thanks Nigel!

I even wrote that I don't like the agreement. I just asked that if you had the agreement, where would you draw the line?

First of all, I didn't ask you who proposed what and why, I just asked you what you would do given agreement X.

nige1, on 2020-January-30, 11:46, said:

Eric Crowhurst proposed the first version of this convention. Except double was for penalty and 2♦ showed any single-suiter.

gwnn didn't say this:

Quote

I like Gwnn's version. with double being Raptor or penalty.

.
OMG yes of course it depends on the suit quality (no hyphen) and scoring method, but where do you draw the line? This was my question. So drum rolls, where does nige1 draw the line?

Quote

IMO with 6M 4m, your choice between 2♦ and 2M, depends on relative suit-quality, and scoring method (at pairs, tend to suppress the minor). Thus ...
- With ♠ x ♥ Q x x x x x ♦ A x ♣ K Q J x, you might overcall 2♥.
- With ♠ A x x ♥ A K x x x x ♦- ♣ J x x x (Gwnn's example) you might prefer 2♦.
Typo corrected - Thanks to Pescatom

OK maybe we will need to send a personal envelope to nige1 and subpoena him about his line. Wow. "might" - "might".

Thanks Nigel!! <3

I am sorry for being so blunt but can anyone read the original post before replying? Is that too much to ask for?

OK I am done. I am probably never posting again. This reply made gwnn.exe crash.

(and I can hear you ask: who is this gwnn, who cares whether he posts or not? yea exactly, who cares. carry on.)

[Vampyr]

gwnn, on 2020-January-30, 16:37, said:

This is another post that reminds me why I stopped posting on the forums. And I hinted that I will stop soon, so here I am, I am stopping right now. (oh well apparently no facepalm emojis.) Thanks Nigel!

I even wrote that I don't like the agreement. I just asked that if you had the agreement, where would you draw the line?

First of all, I didn't ask you who proposed what and why, I just asked you what you would do given agreement X.

gwnn didn't say this:
.
OMG yes of course it depends on the suit quality (no hyphen) and scoring method, but where do you draw the line? This was my question. So drum rolls, where does nige1 draw the line?

OK maybe we will need to send a personal envelope to nige1 and subpoena him about his line. Wow. "might" - "might".

Thanks Nigel!! <3

I am sorry for being so blunt but can anyone read the original post before replying? Is that too much to ask for?

OK I am done. I am probably never posting again. This reply made gwnn.exe crash.

(and I can hear you ask: who is this gwnn, who cares whether he posts or not? yea exactly, who cares. carry on.)

I care. Don’t quit posting because one person annoyed you.

[straube]

Have you discussed what to do with 5M/5m?

Maybe...

Dbl-4/5 or 4/6
2D-6 or 6/4
2M-5/4 or 5/5

[gwnn]

Vampyr, on 2020-January-31, 15:39, said:

I care. Don’t quit posting because one person annoyed you.

Thank you for the kind words. I didn't honestly believe anyone would reply to my big drama king post. I will actually stop posting though; I don't like disappearing without a notice, but I also don't like people who vow to never return but then still "reserve the last word."

I will look into expanding my bridge-related youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/c/tgwnn and obviously I am up to playing on BBO (gwnn) or helping anyone with anything. But the forums are irritating me in a way that I cannot manage, and at least half of that is just my lack of social skills or whatever you want to call it.

The forums have actually taught me just about everything I know, which tells you something both about how instructive the forums are but also about how much extra information (not just parroting things I read before) I have actually created in these 13,000 posts - not much. If only someone knew how to look up old posts

Disclaimer: I will play some BBO challenge tournaments so it can be that I post results here.

[DCal]

Tramticket, on 2020-January-30, 08:30, said:

I would only treat this as two-suited if the suit quality in the major was awful.

I agree. If I had a "normal" (whatever that is) 6M, I would bid 2D. If the 6M and 4m were both of good quality, why would I show the m? I guess I'm saying, I would reserve X for 5-4 most of the time.

[DCal]

Vampyr, on 2020-January-30, 15:35, said:

I think against a weak NTit is very useful to have the double as penalty. Similarly, there is a much greater possibility that game is on your way, so it makes sense to be able to answer a 2NT enquiry multi-style. Well, I think so anyway.

Multi-Landy has available, as part of the system, the Woolsey double, which includes the penalty double as one of its meanings. On the other hand, I played the weak no trump for years and have not felt the fear of being doubled for penalty. I agree with a comment attributed to Larry Cohen (I think): "One no trump is the worst contract to defend in bridge." I have almost never suffered from a penalty double after opening one no trump. Most of my partners and I agree to runouts of various types when they are really weak, Many people seem to forget that a weak no trump is usually an opening bid in other systems. How often do you profit from doubling an opening bid (other than one no trump) for penalty? Never, although a few times in my history my partner has passed a one level TO double for penalty. I think the advantage of being able to double an opening bid on one no trump for penalty is really over-rated and that the double can be reserved for other features, like the multi-Landy double showing a long minor or 4M5m.

[Zelandakh]

DCal, on 2020-February-08, 15:09, said:

I think the advantage of being able to double an opening bid on one no trump for penalty is really over-rated and that the double can be reserved for other features, like the multi-Landy double showing a long minor or 4M5m.

The main point of playing a penalty double over a Weak NT is often to create an upper bound for the other overcalls, thus making all of our constructive auctions better, rather than getting rich directly. That sometimes the opening side will have nowhere to run to and get whacked is just an additional benefit.