[pescetom]

blackshoe, on 2019-September-27, 23:42, said:

Precision doesn't have a game forcing opening bid. It's not the only such system, either.

A strong artificial 2C is not necessarily game forcing either, independent of system, unless your RA is clumsy and heavy handed. It usually contains any balanced hand too strong for 2nt which for many of us could be as little as 22 hcp, insufficient to force game.

This apart from the semantic debate about whether an apparent commitment that can be abandoned before game in certain circumstances is really a game force at all.

[senerpont]

In combination with the strong 2C opening we use the control bid responses, which allow you to get out of an unachievable 4M.
Kings are 1pt; Aces are 2pts.
Responses:
2D = 1pt or less
2H = 2pts: one Ace or 2 Kings
2S = 3 pts: one Ace + one King
2NT= 3 pts: 3 Kings
etc.
After that partners bid their 5-card or NT
Responder can pass after NT or Opener rebid his suit.
I would open 2C with this hand!

[portslade]

Thank you all for your comments which I have found very helpful. My example was not a good one as I agree it is worth a 2♣opening. If however the Q♣was replaced by the 2♣!
Having played varieties of Acol for nearly 50 years I am aware of its origins and meaning and that it is not an acronym.

[barmar]

pescetom, on 2019-September-28, 02:46, said:

A strong artificial 2C is not necessarily game forcing either, independent of system, unless your RA is clumsy and heavy handed.

Although a forcing opening like 2♣ is not game forcing by itself, opener can use it to show a game-forcing hand, because responder can't pass, and opener can bid game on their next bid if they want. And most also play that responder can't pass on the second round unless opener rebids 2NT. So 2♣ is very close to a game force -- that way opener doesn't have to skip the bidding if they have game in hand, it allows room for responder to clarify their hand (e.g. "2nd negative").

Opener has no other way to force to game other than bidding game with their first bid -- in the case of suit bids, this is typically used for preemptive hands, so we need a way to distinguish hands that force to game on strength.

[rienzi]

It is one of the disadvantages in the American approach. If you want to see lunacy at its best, try a few Bridge 4 Hands. If you get any satisfactory suggestions I should like to hear them

[rienzi]

HeavyDluxe, on 2019-September-26, 09:58, said:

That's about it... Agreements and style matter.

That said, the groupiest group of people I played with consistently played 2♣ as all 22+ or any 'distributional within a trick-ish of game in your best suit'.

I am not an expert. The trouble with rules like 22 or 22 points for a 2C opening bid is that you will pick up a hand with lengthy distribution in one or two suits. You love it and immediately start to think "Grand Slam". The trouble is that it only has sixteen points, or perhaps a couple more. I recently read a hand with nine solid Clubs and a bit on the outside. The player opened 2C and rebid his suits. When the cavalry was sent for he argued that he hand nine winners etc. I don't recall the ruling. I see this type of hand relatively quite often, perhaps once every five hundred deals (.

I doubt if there is a satisfactory answer to your question. If you have a regular partner try to get an agreement with him/her and defend your position



Welcome to the club

[gwnn]

I'd open both that hand and one with ♣Jxx[/cl] 2♣, and I like to play that anything other than
2♣-2♦; 2NT-pass is game forcing (keeps bidding clearer). Sometimes we'll get too high, but that's how it goes. Partner could have the ♠10 and the ♦Q (with a lucky lead) or lots of different combinations of cards.
We can count our tricks and partner can count their cover cards all we want, but it's not an exact science.

With a similar but weaker hand, one could bid:
1♠-1NT
4♥ showing a very strong 1-suiter with short hearts (auto-splinter), if you play that. The logic being that a strong hand with spades and hearts can jump to 3♥ (jump) instead.

[pilowsky]

I open 4♠ or 4♥ with this type of hand and if my partner has values they can reply 4NT (0314 for me). I keep a log of these hands and check them with the GIB double-dummy. Almost all the time (8/10) it works; occasionally you miss a slam sometimes you go off: depends on how tired you are, who you are playing with, or how much Acol you were drinking

[Vampyr]

pescetom, on 2019-September-28, 02:46, said:

A strong artificial 2C is not necessarily game forcing either, independent of system,

Well, not independent of system. For instance I think it might be game forcing in one version of Benji.

[pescetom]

Vampyr, on 2019-November-25, 13:45, said:

Well, not independent of system. For instance I think it might be game forcing in one version of Benji.

Certainly any system where 2C can show a balanced hand of 23 or less. I thought that included Benji, maybe not.

[pescetom]

--

[Vampyr]

pescetom, on 2019-November-25, 14:04, said:

Certainly any system where 2C can show a balanced hand of 23 or less. I thought that included Benji, maybe not.

I was not very familiar with Benji, but yes, the strongest bid can still have a non-GF balanced range. I’m sure there is some kind of homegrown system out there though.