[Double !]

Is it clearly established that BBO adv. plays the 3H rebid (1D-1S-3H) as some type of splinter?
I know a number of people who play it as a 5-6 hand that's not good enough for a reverse and suit rebid. I am not advocating either meaing of the bid, just trying to clarify the meaning of the bid in the given system.

[whereagles]

Well, I also think 3H will muddy the issue without opener getting any visible profit from it.

If you don't want to commit to 4C, 4D, 4NT or whatever, try the 2H. At least the bidding stays low and you'll actually get to know something: if pard has a weakish hand with 5 spades, say Kxxxx xxx xx Qxx, he'll bid 2S and you'll know you belong only in no more than 4. With AKxxx xxx xx xxx opposite the "reverse", he might already try 4th suit to look for a 3 card spade in you.

The problem of the "reverse" is that pard might have 4 hearts and you have need to convince him somehow that spades are a better fit than hearts.

[pclayton]

I've been converted to 4♦ on this hand, although in my regular partnership, I use 4♦ as Luis describes - picture jump - either a 6-4 or 7-4. I don't think pard will become as excited over the vague 4♣

The reason that it might work out OK is because pard can Last Train with 4♥ to show some undefined slam interest with two black aces.

I still 4N is the most practical call however with an unknown pard whom I haven't discussed LTTC with. At the end of the day, this is still a 3 loser hand.

3♥ is too bizarre for me and its not even forcing to game the way I play. Will pard cooperate with a cue bid after I pull 3♠ to 3N? This is something I wouldn't want to try at the table.

[Zoltan]

3♥ is better then 4♦??? Hmmmmmmmm....

If you play on BBO this hand with an UNKNOWN expert partner, after 3♥ and so on... you need to find presumably another expert partner to next hand. TD will be at your table on tourney also, I'm sure.

Ben, I need to know basically: is the goal to find a creatve bid, or just to find the best AND understandable bid in this poll?

Sry Ben, I don't want to bother you (you are great), but 4♦ is at least 2x BETTER then 3♥ for public experts and advanced players. 1. At least you don't hide a good 6 card suit, 2. it's a natural bid, and 3. If 3♥ is splinter= you don't have this type of hand.

So 4♦=80 and 3♥=40 is more realistic score IMHO.

Regards,

Zoltan

[awm]

Let me explain why 3♥ is a good bid.

There are some types of hands where your goal is to describe your hand to partner. There are other hands where your goal is to assume captaincy, and get partner to tell you something useful. This hand definitely falls into the second category. You know that we have a grand slam if partner has ♠AK and ♣A. There is simply too much about this hand to communicate to partner effectively. For example:

If you bid 4♦ (solid suit), will partner know that you have hearts totally locked up? That you have a singleton club? Wouldn't you bid this KQTx x AKQJxx xx?

If you bid 4♣ (splinter), will partner know that you have no need of help in either red suit? That you have six solid tricks in diamonds? Wouldn't you bid this on KQTx KQJx AQJx x?

It is going to be very difficult for partner to evaluate over either 4♣ or 4♦. In either case, I doubt partner will realize that a hand like AKxxx xxx xx xxx is pure gold for slam. There's nothing to cue here over 4♣, and it's tough to hunt for slam over 4♦ with no help in either of the rounded suits. Partner will often sign off in 4♠ with hands that make slam (and also with hands that make no 5-level contract).

Perhaps the solution is to assume captaincy by bidding 4NT, but there are any number of hands with 0-1 keycard where even 5♠ is quite poor. So the goal of this hand must be to find some sensible way to get a little more information out of partner before blasting into keycard. Again, I don't think 4♣ or 4♦ really do it. This hand is simply too good to give one bit of information about the hand (short clubs, or solid diamonds) and then trust partner to make the right choice.

The 3♥ bid has the advantage of being lower, and of not being (necessarily) game forcing. It tells partner that the ♥QJ will be useless cards, although it is unclear about the clubs. Partner's likely actions are:

3♠. Partner is not going to sign off with seven working points outside of hearts. I think a hand like AKxxx xxx xx xxx is a clear 4♠ bid, as is KJxx xxx xx Axxx. So in this auction you're pretty safe just raising to game, slam is unlikely.

4♠. Partner will not be on a dead minimum, even if you discard the ♥QJ. So partner has at least 7-8 points outside of hearts. It's barely possible that partner could lack at least one keycard for this, the worst hand would likely be something like Kxxx xxx xx KQxx. Bidding keycard, while not totally safe, is made substantially safer by the knowledge that partner doesn't have some garbage like Jxxx Qxx xx Kxxx.

4♣. Yes this might be the king. But partner shows slam interest despite having nothing in diamonds, and having to discount all heart cards. At the very least, partner must have one keycard here, and two (or three) are overwhelmingly likely. Again 4NT is safe.

Surely some intolerant partners will be upset if you "mastermind" the auction in this way. But on hands like this, it is right. Ideally you'd like to make a series of asking bids, but since you're not playing those, 3♥ will have to do.

[Zoltan]

3♥ is a creative and good bid, no doubt about it. But does not describe your hand in THIS SYSTEM with a pickup partner. This is my problem.

You should solve the slam problem with BBO Advanced and simple method.
You never mentioned partner's 4NT, but there is a big chance, that he will bid 4NT with good cards. THEN you will be in trouble.
What do you do if your partner goes to slam via RKCB? (Most players will do this!)

...3♥ - 4NT
5♠ - (2 KC+♠Q)

With AKxx, xxxx, x. Axxx after your 5♠ response he will assume something: Qxxx, A, AKxxx, Kxx. He will end with 6♠, I think. Your 6 diamond tricks are hidden, and he will never go for grand slam.

Quote

I doubt partner will realize that a hand like AKxxx xxx xx xxx is pure gold for slam.

I don't think so. With this cards he counts 5 spade + 6 diamond tricks and a sure ruff for 12. Have to check the keys. 4NT is OK this time, Qxxx, xx, AKQJxx, A is the worst scenario. For this, 4♥ Last Train will solve this problem.
But partner with AKxx, xxxx, x, Axxx has no problem after 4♦.

Regards, Zoltan

[HeartA]

I am on Zoltan's side.

[luis]

Zoltan, on May 19 2005, 09:00 PM, said:

3♥ is a creative and good bid, no doubt about it. But does not describe your hand in THIS SYSTEM with a pickup partner. This is my problem.

You should solve the slam problem with BBO Advanced and simple method.
You never mentioned partner's 4NT, but there is a big chance, that he will bid 4NT with good cards. THEN you will be in trouble.
What do you do if your partner goes to slam via RKCB? (Most players will do this!)

...3♥ - 4NT
5♠ - (2 KC+♠Q)

With AKxx, xxxx, x. Axxx after your 5♠ response he will assume something: Qxxx, A, AKxxx, Kxx. He will end with 6♠, I think. Your 6 diamond tricks are hidden, and he will never go for grand slam.

Quote

I doubt partner will realize that a hand like AKxxx xxx xx xxx is pure gold for slam.

I don't think so. With this cards he counts 5 spade + 6 diamond tricks and a sure ruff for 12. Have to check the keys. 4NT is OK this time, Qxxx, xx, AKQJxx, A is the worst scenario. For this, 4♥ Last Train will solve this problem.
But partner with AKxx, xxxx, x, Axxx has no problem after 4♦.

Regards, Zoltan

With my respect I found this absurd, if pd with all the keycards doesn't bid 5NT then he could as well have passed 1♦ since he has no idea of bridge.
After 4NT-5♠ pd will bid 5Nt counting all the keycards and we can bid 7 based on the solid diamonds. If he bids 6 then we are missing one keycard so we don't care.
The idea of the poll is not to find the best bid with a pickup pd but to find the best bid with your pd if you were playing BBO advanced.
So we can assume some things like:
a) Pd plays the same system we play
Pd is not an idiot
c) Pd will try to understand our non-agreed bids
d) We won't blast to some contract assuming pd will make a mistake if we don't

[awm]

This thread seems like another reason not to include LTTC in the system. I'm sure that when Fred uses this convention (or when Meckstroth does) it shows/requests something very specific depending on the situation. I'm also sure there are specific agreements about (assuming spades are agreed) when 4♥ is a cue and when it's LTTC.

But the way most people use this convention, it's basically a blame transfer. Says something like "Well, I have a hand partner, do something intelligent." Evidently some people expect to bid it on minimums with possibly useful cards so that partner can... um... use the force to figure out whether to bid on.

I do find it puzzling that Zoltan expects partner to fail to look for a grand opposite an unlimited opener, holding all keycards and the trump queen.... and yet also expects partner to know that 4♥ over 4♦ is LTTC (I don't necessarily agree that it should be) and also know to use it with the dead minimum AKxxx xxx xx xxx, but not with Axxx xxx xx KQxx, even though it seems like the 4♦ bidder could easily (perhaps should) have KQxx x AKQxxx Ax instead of the hand given.

[luke warm]

no wonder i tend to forget lttc... i have to admit, i do like serous 3nt and the non-serious cuebidding style fred advocates

[HeartA]

awm, on May 19 2005, 05:41 PM, said:

I do find it puzzling that Zoltan expects partner to fail to look for a grand opposite an unlimited opener, holding all keycards and the trump queen.... and yet also expects partner to know that 4♥ over 4♦ is LTTC (I don't necessarily agree that it should be) and also know to use it with the dead minimum AKxxx xxx xx xxx, but not with Axxx xxx xx KQxx, even though it seems like the 4♦ bidder could easily (perhaps should) have KQxx x AKQxxx Ax instead of the hand given.

I don't see it puzzling at all. When pd bid 4D, he is more interested in KEY-CARDs instead of secondary (needless to say Qs) cards. When responder holds AKxxx xxx xx xxx he knows what opener is worried about. If responder holds Axxx xxx xx KQxx, CKQ may worth nothing.

[HeartA]

luis, on May 19 2005, 04:59 PM, said:

With my respect I found this absurd, if pd with all the keycards doesn't bid 5NT then he could as well have passed 1♦ since he has no idea of bridge.
After 4NT-5♠ pd will bid 5Nt counting all the keycards and we can bid 7 based on the solid diamonds. If he bids 6 then we are missing one keycard so we don't care.
The idea of the poll is not to find the best bid with a pickup pd but to find the best bid with your pd if you were playing BBO advanced.
So we can assume some things like:
a) Pd plays the same system we play
Pd is not an idiot
c) Pd will try to understand our non-agreed bids
d) We won't blast to some contract assuming pd will make a mistake if we don't

I don't agree, luis.

When opener bids 3H, he is not telling pd the real holding, the number of tricks from powerful D suit. With a (mini-)splinter of 3H, I would take pd's hand as 4441 or 5431 with scattered honors (15-17 hcp or so).

Even if pd dares to bid 4NT after 3H, he does not necessarily to bid 5N when all 5 key cards are present. Partner could hold Qxxx, A, AQxxx, Kxx. And I believe it is quite common practice if opener (or 5NT's responder) holds 2 side Kings, he should bid grand. You don't want to in grand holding AKxxx, xx, xx, Axxx, facing pd with Qxxx, AK, AKxxx, xx (or better Qxxx, A, AKxxx, Kxx), do you?

[the hog]

Quote Luis:
"The idea of the poll is not to find the best bid with a pickup pd but to find the best bid with your pd if you were playing BBO advanced.
So we can assume some things like:
a) Pd plays the same system we play
Pd is not an idiot
c) Pd will try to understand our non-agreed bids
d) We won't blast to some contract assuming pd will make a mistake if we don't"

Luis, if this is the purpose of the poll, then I cannot understand why you don't find 4D. My pd would know I have 6 solid Ds and 4 card S control. He would also know that 4H by him is Last Train. Richard has already argued this view. A 3H splinter on AK is a misdescription of the hand; partner will overvalue xxx and discount QJxx of H. You may get to an average 6S where 6NT is on ice.

Ron

[whereagles]

awm, on May 19 2005, 07:26 PM, said:

Surely some intolerant partners will be upset if you "mastermind" the auction in this way.

Even the most intolerant player will be ok with a bit of masterminding... IF IT MAKES

In any case, any masterminding is better than leaving control to pard, who will want to stop in 4S 99% of the time. Not taking charge here is a good way to get into an violent arguing with pard at the end of the hand

"how could you not bid on with AKxx xxx xx xxxx"??
"what was I supposed to do with that junk? bid 4NT on my own!!!?? you can't be serious"

etc.. etc.. etc..

[han]

I think that we can do without arguments about what intolerant pick-up partners might think about our bids when they work out badly. I try not to worry about this at the table, and vertainly not here. 3H doesn't get so many points because it is original, but because people really think that it would work better than 4D.

[luis]

The_Hog, on May 20 2005, 12:48 AM, said:

Quote Luis:
"The idea of the poll is not to find the best bid with a pickup pd but to find the best bid with your pd if you were playing BBO advanced.
So we can assume some things like:
a) Pd plays the same system we play
Pd is not an idiot
c) Pd will try to understand our non-agreed bids
d) We won't blast to some contract assuming pd will make a mistake if we don't"

Luis, if this is the purpose of the poll, then I cannot understand why you don't find 4D. My pd would know I have 6 solid Ds and 4 card S control. He would also know that 4H by him is Last Train. Richard has already argued this view. A 3H splinter on AK is a misdescription of the hand; partner will overvalue xxx and discount QJxx of H. You may get to an average 6S where 6NT is on ice.

Ron

I already said why, because I play the 4♦ jump as solid diamonds, 4 spades and nothing in hearts or clubs. If I can either have something in hearts or clubs or both pd would have to flip a coin to know what to do over 4♦ and there isn't a lot of space.