[mike777]

Well I think with 2 keycards p has got to speak up. Esp. if we respond lite. Heck Kokish style may have

xxxxx
xxx
void
xxxxx

Do you want to play in 1D or 4s or 5s?

[luis]

I'm following this close and I'm very interested with all the bids and ideas posted. I had a creative moment when answering this hand so I'm probably going to score 0 but after this discussion I feel quite happy with my selection.

For the record I think 4♦ is bad and I prefer 2♥ to 4♣ but I bid something else so....

(You'll see soon)

[inquiry]

luis, on May 17 2005, 03:04 PM, said:

I'm following this close and I'm very interested with all the bids and ideas posted. I had a creative moment when answering this hand so I'm probably going to score 0 but after this discussion I feel quite happy with my selection.

For the record I think 4♦ is bad and I prefer 2♥ to 4♣ but I bid something else so....

(You'll see soon)

Yes, luis came up with a creative choice on this one... and yes, it will not receive a high score, but it probably deserves a very high one... I will need to refelct upon it some more.

Ben

[hrothgar]

luis, on May 17 2005, 10:04 PM, said:

I'm following this close and I'm very interested with all the bids and ideas posted. I had a creative moment when answering this hand so I'm probably going to score 0 but after this discussion I feel quite happy with my selection.

For the record I think 4♦ is bad and I prefer 2♥ to 4♣

I'll repeat again that I consider 4♦ to be the only logical choice... If players aren't going to use a 4♦ rebid with this hand, then they should damn well reassign the meaning of the 4♦ rebid. I understand that some players are fixating on the fact that opener holds the AK of Hearts; fearing that responder won't be able to make a sensible rebid. However, this is (should be) a non-issue.

First and foremost, the 4♦ bidder could easily hold a a singleton or even a void in Hearts. In this case, a holding like xxxx in responder's hand is golden and not necessarily a detriment. Accordingly, responder's 4♥ advance should NOT show a Heart control. As I noted earlier, this bid should be used as Last train or something similar.. If you don't like the Last Train interpretation, than it must be better to ask via a Control Asking Bid rather than show...

The following type of response structure problable makes sense:

55♠ = trump quality ask type 2
5♥ = trump quality ask type 2
5♦ = Control asking bid in Hearts
5♣ = Control asking bid in Clubs
4NT = RKCB for Spades (Diamonds don't count)
4♠ = Signoff
4♥ = Last train

[Al_U_Card]

Would not 4S show a hand that if Pard has anything more than 4S with 8 hcp then he will ask for Keycards or if he has 2 losers anywhere then q-bid controls or bid 5S as no problem with S but needs help outside. This obviates the need for special agreements on splinters, own suit jumps etc. Based on the trump fit and your 4 loser hand, his response could be on a 10 loser 4-3-3-3 piece of cheese and 4S is the limit.

[Fluffy]

I found this hand kinda fun because I held this 2 weeks ago:

♠Q10xx
♥AKQJ109xx
♦AK
♣-


opened 1♥, partner answered 1♠, and since we didn't play exclusion I jsut bid 5NT, going 2 off to 6♥ when opponent found a singleton ♠ lead to teh Ace, King and a ruff. Still I think my 5NT bid was correct :-P.

[luis]

There was a very similar hand in our South American championship two years ago.

North held:
AJxx
AKQxxx
AKx
-

And south held:
KQTxxx
xx
xx
xxx

In the women tables the bidding was identical at both tables:
1♥ - pass - pass -pass
Making 7 No Swing!

In the men tables the bidding was identical at both tables:
1♥ - 1♠
5NT - 7♠
Making, No swing!

Interesting isn't it?

[luke warm]

wow... 'interesting' is one word for it... would be very hard for me to pass 1H...

[mike777]

inquiry, on May 16 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

BPO-002D
S----------W---------- N----------E
1♦…………..Pass…………1♠…….…..Pass
? your bid

---

Here is a typical minimum for 4D
KQ85
7
AQJT84
63

[hrothgar]

mike777, on May 18 2005, 12:40 AM, said:

inquiry, on May 16 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ QT42 ♥ AK ♦ AKQ954 ♣ T

BPO-002D S----------W---------- N----------E 1♦…………..Pass…………1♠…….…..Pass ? your bid

Here is a typical minimum for 4D
KQ85
7
AQJT84
63

4♦ explictly promises a solid Diamond suit...

[mike777]

Respectfully disagree that is not standard but perhaps in your partnerships it is.

See Hardy, 2002.

[the hog]

Quote Mike:

Here is a typical minimum for 4D
KQ85
7
AQJT84
63

Mike sorry, but you are WAY off beam with that hand as a 4D bid. Richard is 100% correct on this. The hand you post is a 3S bid.

[Double !]

I'm curious.
Would people rebid 4 diamonds with
♠ QTxx
♥ Ax
♦ AKQJxx
♣ x

?

BTW: I can't wait to see what Luis bid.

[the hog]

Double !, on May 18 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

I'm curious.
Would people rebid 4 diamonds with
♠ QTxx
♥ Ax
♦ AKQJxx
♣ x

?

BTW: I can't wait to see what Luis bid.

Yes, I would and suspect Richard would also.

[Double !]

If YES, then that extra King of Hearts makes a big difference, don't you think?
It's not only worth an extra trick, it's one less that the opps potentially could cash once we lose the lead (assuming a heart lead)

[hrothgar]

The_Hog, on May 18 2005, 01:50 AM, said:

Double !, on May 18 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

I'm curious.
Would people rebid 4 diamonds with
♠  QTxx
♥    Ax
♦ AKQJxx
♣  x

        ?

BTW:          I can't wait to see what Luis bid.

Yes, I would and suspect Richard would also.

I'm SO predictable...

Yes, I'd bid 4♦ with this hand

For me, the important points to covey are:

1. 4 card spade support
2. 6-7 solid Diamonds

[keylime]

4D, picture jump, clear cut. The splinter crowd is clouding the issue.

[luke warm]

Quote

4D, picture jump, clear cut. The splinter crowd is clouding the issue.

how so? i admit 4♦ didn't occur to me, though maybe it should have... what do the 4♦ bidders call over 4♠, assuming partner is on the same 'picture' wavelength? probably the same thing i'd bid after 4♣, which is 4nt, but maybe not

[Double !]

Luis, thank you for response.

I actually meant that I couldn't wait to find out what you bid with the initially given problem hand. I love creativity and find it very helpful.

[the hog]

Two points:
The HK is definitely not as important as showing the solid Ds - you have a source of tricks.
I would pass 4S as I fear 2 Spade losers. Over 4D, as Richard has already intimated, 4H would be Last Train.
A splinter is poor as it again does not emphasise the D suit.