[P_Marlowe]

3C.

I fail to see the problem.

Inventing a suit, taking a strong 3 carder, is as old
as anything.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pclayton]

Fluffy, on May 17 2005, 03:51 AM, said:

pclayton, on May 17 2005, 05:43 AM, said:

3♣. Many other possible strains other than 3N.

I'd rather have one more heart and not the ♣K for a 3N call.

4♥ never occurred to me.

You copied my answer

hehe

Maybe Ben won't let us sit next to each other during next weeks test.

[luke warm]

question to those for whom 4♥ didn't occur... what does the bid show?

[Fluffy]

1♥-1♠
4♥

Something like:

♠x
♥AQJ109xx
♦KJxx
♣x

or..

♠Qxx
♥KQJ109xx
♦AJx
♣-

Clearly not very close to what we had this time.

[luke warm]

true, those aren't even close... i asked because i was taught that a jump to 4M from 1M showed about 20 hcp and a very good, usually 6+, card suit... i guess that has changed

[mike777]

Fluffy, on May 17 2005, 04:12 PM, said:

1♥-1♠
4♥

Something like:

♠x
♥AQJ109xx
♦KJxx
♣x

or..

♠Qxx
♥KQJ109xx
♦AJx
♣-

Clearly not very close to what we had this time.

I hope not without specific agreement.

1H=1S
4H

7
AKJ9432
AQJ6
6

ROOT, 1986.

Bergen, 2001
1H=1S
4H= A HAND JUST SHORT OF STRONG 2C OPENER, WITH GREAT HEARTS.

[inquiry]

Scoring: IMP

BPO-002A
E------- S-------W--------N
Pass……..1♥…….Pass………1♠
Pass……..? your bid

---

Your hand is very strong, and the panel clearly felt that it was game forcing in value (and I agree). If you are going to force to game, the options are fairly varied. Bids that might “jump” to mind are a leap to 3NT or 4♥, or a game forcing jump-shift in one of the minors. The panel overwhelming went with a jump shift to 3♣, a bid I thought that would be popular, but that is only my second choice.

You can’t jump rebid 3♥ as that is not forcing, and none of the panelist even consideration, although Jlall did explain why no panelist considered bidding 4♥’s on this hand, when he said “ Bidding 4H would not describe this many high card points at all (think ♠x ♥AQJxxxx ♦x ♣AQJx for example) so (a 4♥ jump) might miss slam and would preclude playing in either NT or a minor.” This explanation is right on target, so this leaves 3NT and a jump shift in a minor as the viable options. The problem with 3♣ occurs in auctions similar to 1♥-1♠-3♣-3♠-3NT-4♣, where your partner (reasonably) thinks you have clubs and he is setting clubs as trumps. Try as you might, you may not be able to bail out of clubs short of slam. The best bid, in my opinion, is 3NT which describes this hand nicely: long strong heart suit, no fit for spades – and in likelihood very short spades - and stoppers in the other two suits. While the majority of the panel didn’t like this bid, I am comforted by the fact that Fred, who was preparing for the US Team trials so could only send his votes, but sadly no comments, agreed with me that 3NT is the right bid. While Fred didn’t have time to explain why he bid 3NT, several of the panelist, including the first contest winner got it right for the right reason.

Awm: “ 3NT. Should show this hand exactly: solid hearts, stoppers in the minors, enough to be in game opposite a one-level response. In any other sequence it will be difficult to show the good hearts and both minor suit stoppers, and still stop in 3NT when it's right.” This was just the first of several insightful comments and bids for our guest panelist, as he showed exceptional understanding of the hands (read this to mean, most of bids are what I would have bid... lol).

ng: “It is an obvious bid, I can’t imagine better choice (I don’t think 4H would be better, 2NT would promise less points, 3m is unnecessary here). The heart 10 is a very good card besides AKQ. True, I have a singleton, but it is in my partner’s suit and an honour (to tell the truth, I would bid 3NT with spade 2 also). If partner bids 4S, the spade Jack is worth 2 small cards.”

Cascade: “ 3NT This is exactly how I play this bid. Too good for 3♥ with a six-card suit. Actually in a addition I can normally differentiate between a hand with and without three spades.. Well, I hope Wayne takes the time to write in and tell us how he manages to separate between hands with three card and one card (and thus I assume two card support as well) on hands like this.

The other panelist considered bidding 3NT, but discarded this response for a variety of reasons. Fluffy voted for 3♣, saying “3NT should be bid on a longer in ♥’s with less strength.” Luis didn’t bid 3NT, because for him, “ 3NT … doesn't show 6 solid hearts, and should show 2 spades, pd may take many wrong views if we bid 3NT. ” So one panelist wanted better hearts for 3NT, the other weaker hearts. I believe 6 or 7 STRONG hearts is what is required.

The popular choice among the panelist was 3♣. The panelist, some of whom have discussed worrying about miss-describing their hand by opening 1♦ when holding 4♦ and 5♣ have no trouble whatsoever creating a jump shift in a suit they do not hold! Well, neither do I, on some hands, just not on this one. This hand is reminiscent of a famous hand from Mike Lawrence where he had a somewhat similar hand and reached 6NT after his jump shift in a three card club suit and his partner would never let him out of clubs until the six level. Reading the play with Lawrence book, you can read the anguish in his voice as his partner doesn’t let him stop in what he knows is the right contract, pulling first 3NT to 4♣ then pulling 4♥.

The panelist in this poll either down play the type of problem Lawrence experienced on his problem (a different but very similar hand), or in one case, plan to take advantage of a partner who raises clubs to find out about aces and the club king with Blackwood. Let’s see what they have up their sleeves.

Some of the panelist seemed to have no worries about getting out of clubs and back into hearts. Fluffy fell into this group, but did address why the jump shift should be in clubs, and not diamonds: “♣’s can always be converted to ♥’s, (♦’s may not, since our answer to 4NT would be 5♦ if ♦ was the fit).” Jlall choose 3♣ also without a major concern about bailing out of clubs, stating “ not worried that partner will expect more in the way of clubs, a 3C jump shift is often a 3 card suit..” He went on to explain the advantages of 3♣ bid: “ 3♣ leaves our options open. Over 3♠ I can bid 3N, over 3♦ I plan on bidding 3♥ then raising diamonds, over 3N I can bid 4♥ and over 3♥ I can try 4♦. This creates a force and leaves flexibility so we can investigate thoroughly.” It is very convenient to ignore the implication of an auction like 1♥-1♠-3♣-3♠-3NT. Your partner will, reasonable think you have a two suiter, and may want to insist, no make that may insist on getting out of notrump and into your second suit, which a quick review of your hand will reveal you don’t actually have.

Walddk, at least was worried about this problem: “3C. I need to establish a game force, so if you don't have a second suit, you invent one. Not a big lie to introduce a 3-card minor. The worst scenario is when partner supports clubs, but I will get the message across when my next bid is 4♥, i.e. a hand too good for 4♥ on my second turn. Here he solves nicely the problem with the 1♥-1♠-3♣-3♠-3NT auction by NOT PLANNING on rebidding 3NT. But of course, this strategy will fail when 3NT is the ideal spot.

Rich Reisig, the BBO’s new’s yellow gold star, has joined the panel. Welcome, Rich. Like the other gold stars, Reisig went with 3♣’s, explaining “I like to use 3♣ as either strong one suited (6+) or with a ♣ suit..3♦ asks and 3M = 1 suited all others = ♣ suit. This sounds like an interesting treatment with a useful check back. Such a treatment would handle the potential problems that arise on the auction of the other 3♣ bidders. Sadly, this 3♦ check back is not part of BBO advanced. As it is, Rich will fall into the top score anyway.

Another BBO yellow who is also a gold star, also went with 3♣. Ritong explained his bid this way, ” 3clubs not used to that type of problem, as French system includes a strong opening for these hands. 3nt shows 4522 for me.” And Phicro said simply, "3♣ Game forcing, really too strong for anything else."

Luis wasn’t worried about getting out of clubs either, his plan was much simplier. He is going to use RKCB if clubs were raised and then play six or seven hearts. Luis explained his logic, this way. “[i]3♣; The bid that will let me get valuable information from pd, over 3♦ I can bid 3♥, over 3♥ I can check aces, over 3♠ I can bid 3NT and over 4♣ I `can ask for keycards in clubs on my way to a heart slam or grand slam with the advantage of being able to locate the club K. ”

Somehow, I think the 3NT bidders got this one right, sadly the scores will be based upon the panel votes instead.

VOTES  Panel  Score
3♣        7      100
3NT       4       70
4♥        0      40
3♥        0      10

[Double !]

Granted, this constitutes a whole new problem question, but.............

What are you going do if it goes 3NT -p -p -X ? Sit, or run, if run, where are you going to run to?

I like reisig's treatment.

[awm]

Keep in mind, I'm not bidding 3NT to say "Partner, shut up, we are playing 3NT." That is a rather silly meaning for a bid to have. I believe that my 3NT bid shows 6-7 solid or near-solid hearts, stoppers in the unbid suits, and a good enough hand to want to play in game opposite a one-level response. It could be a slightly worse hand, perhaps something like:

x
AKQxxxx
Kx
Axx

However, with a solid suit the extra heart in this hand is worth a lot, and I wouldn't say it's much weaker than the hand we actually hold. Partner is not necessarily expected to pass, certainly partner can rebid 4♥ (especially with lousy spades), or raise to slam, or cuebid (presumably agreeing hearts) to look for slam. On the other hand, if partner holds a lousy hand like:

KQxx
xx
xxx
Jxxx

I rather prefer my chances in 3NT to 4♥. I'm not sure how exactly I will get to 3NT if I start with a 3♣ bid, especially not by way of showing my six good hearts. In fact some panelists mentioned that they would bypass 3NT on this hand, which I think could be a mistake.

If opponents double 3NT, good for them, I am passing. Partner knows to pull with weak spades -- I've promised long/strong hearts and stoppers in both unbids, I'm unlikely to hold a spade stopper and I think the double clearly asks for a spade lead. In fact with a hand like:

xxxx
xx
AQxx
xxx

I would expect partner to pull 3NT immediately.

[Double !]

-so would I-

[luke warm]

justin is quoted as saying " Bidding 4H would not describe this many high card points at all..." and ben agrees, saying he's "right on target"

if this is so, when did root's and bergen's (and others) explanations change? i'm *not* arguing, i sincerely would like to know

[mike777]

luke warm, on May 17 2005, 06:12 PM, said:

justin is quoted as saying " Bidding 4H would not describe this many high card points at all..." and ben agrees, saying he's "right on target"

if this is so, when did root's and bergen's (and others) explanations change? i'm *not* arguing, i sincerely would like to know

The Official Bridge Encyclopedia of Bridge 6th edition.

1H=1S
4H

"MANY POWERFUL HANDS WITH A SEVEN-CARD SUIT OR EVEN AN EIGHT-CARD SUIT WOULD QUALIFY. A SIX=CARD SUIT IS POSSIBLE"

Q54
AKQJT4
AJ3
3

Of course none of this says 3c or 3nt is not best.

[luke warm]

right, i understand and agree with that... i was just wondering when it stopped showing what i was taught

[HeartA]

I voted for 3C.

[kgr]

The problem with this hand is that the sequence:
1H-1S-3NT
is not clearly defined in BBO advanced.
I suppose 1H-1S-2NT is GF, so 1H-1S-3NT should have a special meaning.
...for me it is strong, 6-card H, and stoppers. The hand of the poll was perfect.
Others did have a different meaning for 3NT here and they had to pick another bid.

[badderzboy]

Hi all,

Is 3♦ rather than 3♣ an awful bid here and quick note to Ben should it score zero lol - if the same as 3♣ I'd have 570 this week lol!.

I can easily see the auction going 1♥-1♠-3♣-3♦* and you get to bid 3NT regardless of whether partner has any ♥'s

Over 3♦ partner is forced to bid 3♥ to show 2 or 3♠ to show extra length which he is pretty likely to hold 5 or more you can then correct to 3NT or 4♥ which ever appears better.

You also may attract a ♣ lead into your AQ...

Steve (BILlie)

[beatrix45]

whereagles, on May 16 2005, 10:10 AM, said:

3NT. Why didn't I open 2C?

Ditto for me.

[HeartA]

badderzboy, on May 20 2005, 02:07 PM, said:

Hi all,

Is 3♦ rather than 3♣ an awful bid here and quick note to Ben should it score zero lol - if the same as 3♣ I'd have 570 this week lol!.

I can easily see the auction going 1♥-1♠-3♣-3♦* and you get to bid 3NT regardless of whether partner has any ♥'s

Over 3♦ partner is forced to bid 3♥ to show 2 or 3♠ to show extra length which he is pretty likely to hold 5 or more you can then correct to 3NT or 4♥ which ever appears better.

You also may attract a ♣ lead into your AQ...

Steve (BILlie)

By bidding 3C, you could attract a D lead into your KJ as well . The main issue is not about to attract opp's lead, it is, instead, to find the best fit. If pd had 4 ♠s and 5♣s (or even longer, but not strong enough to respond 2C as you can expect). If pd raises 3C to 4C, you could expect 5 ♣s from pd. But if you bid 3♦, you would miss ♣ fit for good. The same principle applies to 1M-1N (forcing) with 5-2-3-3 hand (12-14 hcp, assuming 15-17 NT). You don't try to hind ♣ suit and bid 2D, do you?