[bravejason]

After an auction start such as
1C - 1H
1S - 2D (FSF)

Assume FSF is game forcing (Don’t some people play it as less than game forcing?).

How does opener show extra values? How does opener show minimal values? How does Responder do the same?

[Cyberyeti]

We would play 3♦ as showing strength here.

[FelicityR]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-04, 06:35, said:

We would play 3♦ as showing strength here.

That's an interesting option. Obviously, your system. I would play it as opener further describing his distribution with a 4♠0♥4♦5♣ hand. For all we know responder might have a genuine ♦ suit but chose FSF to elicit more information.

[Stephen Tu]

bravejason, on 2019-July-04, 06:29, said:

After an auction start such as
1C - 1H
1S - 2D (FSF)

Assume FSF is game forcing (Don't some people play it as less than game forcing?).

How does opener show extra values? How does opener show minimal values? How does Responder do the same?

Unnecessary jumps (e.g. jumping to 3nt instead of bidding 2nt which is already GF) can show extra values. With some hands for various reasons one may not want to consume the space with a jump, so you have to simply make a minimum bid then decide later whether it's prudent to show your extra K or whatever later by making a slam try cue bid or pulling from 3nt to a minor or otherwise bidding on after partner's game signoff attempt.

[Cyberyeti]

FelicityR, on 2019-July-04, 09:18, said:

That's an interesting option. Obviously, your system. I would play it as opener further describing his distribution with a 4♠0♥4♦5♣ hand. For all we know responder might have a genuine ♦ suit but chose FSF to elicit more information.

We don't have a huge choice as our FSF is NOT FG.

You could clearly play an artificial 2N in the FG auction to cover several options.

[pescetom]

bravejason, on 2019-July-04, 06:29, said:

After an auction start such as
1C - 1H
1S - 2D (FSF)

Assume FSF is game forcing (Don’t some people play it as less than game forcing?).

How does opener show extra values? How does opener show minimal values? How does Responder do the same?

FSF is not a great agreement after this auction start IMO. Opener is limited but still has a huge range, responder is uncertain about combined strength and may have good reason to describe his own hand precisely. XYZ works well here, better to reserve FSF for the situations where it is the only way to force to game.

[smerriman]

pescetom, on 2019-July-04, 13:21, said:

FSF is not a great agreement after this auction start IMO. Opener is limited but still has a huge range, responder is uncertain about combined strength and may have good reason to describe his own hand precisely. XYZ works well here, better to reserve FSF for the situations where it is the only way to force to game.

Aren't XYZ and FSF 100% identical in this auction? 2♦ is the game forcing bid in both.

Edit - I guess they differ in that responder can jump with lots of extra strength/shape, but that's very rare, and even rarer considering we're talking about how to handle opener having extra strength.

[HardVector]

If you have a distributional hand, after FSF, you just continue to show the distribution below game. The real questions happens if you are otherwise balanced and are considering a bid in nt. The way I learned it, was after a GF bid (either FSF or a 2/1 bid), 2n shows either 12-14 or 18+ balanced and 3n shows 15-17 balanced with the caveat that 1n was not opened (usually means a singleton in partner's suit). If you bid 2n, partner assumes that you have 12-14 and if you attempt to sign off, opener continues with 18+.

Distributional hands are easier, as you show your distribution, and if partner tries to sign off in 3n, you just bid 4n to show more.

[ahydra]

HardVector, on 2019-July-04, 18:24, said:

If you have a distributional hand, after FSF, you just continue to show the distribution below game. The real questions happens if you are otherwise balanced and are considering a bid in nt. The way I learned it, was after a GF bid (either FSF or a 2/1 bid), 2n shows either 12-14 or 18+ balanced and 3n shows 15-17 balanced with the caveat that 1n was not opened (usually means a singleton in partner's suit). If you bid 2n, partner assumes that you have 12-14 and if you attempt to sign off, opener continues with 18+.

Distributional hands are easier, as you show your distribution, and if partner tries to sign off in 3n, you just bid 4n to show more.

This is partly a style thing I guess. I play a style where you always rebid in NT on the second round with a balanced hand, though that is with a weak NT opener. When playing a strong NT opener, normally with TWalsh, I show unbid majors with a weak NT but still rebid in NT with 18-19 BAL. Given that style, the 2NT/3NT replies to 4SF don't necessarily imply a balanced hand - indeed 5431s might be very common - but otherwise, yes, the key is to continue with a further move, commonly 4NT (quant) over 3NT, when holding a max and partner signs off in game.

ahydra

[msjennifer]

Sir.How does one proceed without defining this 2D GF bid ? Does it confirm a 5 card Heart suit and asking partner if he has a 3 card support or is it asking for a diamond guard for NT ? Or is it JUST A FORCING BID asking partner to continue to bid naturally ?If opener holds KQxx-x-xxx-AKxxx what is he exactly supposed to bid ?.I,personally, do not get what is EXACTLY meant by "EXTRA" as it could mean extra HCP(upto what ?) and if so then what to do with a wild double suited with a normal 12/14 range?..We were taught to consider this 2D bid as NATURAL and only a ORF.With so many theories coming up the 2D is treated as a GF by quite a few if not all.Personally ,I feel it is not easy to concur with ANY SINGLE treatment and a partnership may discuss such sequences and decide the course of action.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 FSF nof being gf, gets played, but gf is what the majority of experts play
#2 How to show add. values? This cant be answered in general, it depends on the
rest of the auction, and what responder tries to find out with FSF, but fast
arrivial is one tool to differentiate between various strengths.
If a major suit fit is agreed, serious / non serious 3NT helps, a similar usage
of 4m is possible with a minor suit ( or conditional minor wood ).

A important point for partnerships is to decide, which bids set trumps, and which
bids are cog ( is 3NT still a valid contract ).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[msjennifer]

HardVector, on 2019-July-04, 18:24, said:

If you have a distributional hand, after FSF, you just continue to show the distribution below game. The real questions happens if you are otherwise balanced and are considering a bid in nt. The way I learned it, was after a GF bid (either FSF or a 2/1 bid), 2n shows either 12-14 or 18+ balanced and 3n shows 15-17 balanced with the caveat that 1n was not opened (usually means a singleton in partner's suit). If you bid 2n, partner assumes that you have 12-14 and if you attempt to sign off, opener continues with 18+.

Distributional hands are easier, as you show your distribution, and if partner tries to sign off in 3n, you just bid 4n to show more.

Sir,i agree with your line of thought,I feel just as we were taught to treat this 2D bid as natural and proceed naturally.Opener can be 4-0-4-5 with a 12 HCP hand in which case what is his bid ? 3D? And does a 3d raise promise honour to 4 ?What should he bid with KQ63-void-9754-AK864 ?. And what should he bid with KQ63-void-KQ54-AK864 ? 3NT or a temporising 2NT/3D ? or 4D ? A consensus of opinion is difficult.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2019-July-04, 14:33, said:

Aren't XYZ and FSF 100% identical in this auction? 2♦ is the game forcing bid in both.

Edit - I guess they differ in that responder can jump with lots of extra strength/shape, but that's very rare, and even rarer considering we're talking about how to handle opener having extra strength.

They share the same bid but differ. MsJennifer described well how ambiguous a 2♦ FSF game force can be in this context, unless you have non-standard partnership agreements about follow ups. An XYZ 2♦ is a more precise business as I see it. First of all, it's explicitly an enquiring bid, responder chose not to describe his own hand further because he needs to know more about opener and has no clear direction for the game force yet. So he is captain and fast arrival is OFF for opener, for instance. Responder had alternative game forces available such as jumps or the 2NT puppet, which show specific distributional hands (not extra strength) where a collaborative decision by partner is requested. These aren't that rare, they represent a significant proportion of all game forces and especially of those with real chances of slam when opener has no reverse. Opener also has the inference that responder chose not to make a invitational bid sequence which might have been an option with borderline strength and certain distributions. 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ would be an invite with 5-card hearts, for instance.

[mikeh]

I have played this sequence, 1C 1H 1S 2D, as gf for almost my entire bridge life, more than 40 years now. In the last few years, it has been xyz, but the meaning is identical to 4SF.

I consider it to be a mistake for opener to jump over 2D, no matter what the hand is.

Look at it this way: when responder creates the game force, he knows why he is doing so. Is he about to raise one of opener's suits? Or to rebid his own suit? Or hoping to find opener able to bid notrump, intending to raise to game or to invite slam?

The best way to treat 4SF is to assume that responder is saying: 'I have the values for game, perhaps more. I don't feel able to place the contract right now, and would like your cooperation. However, for now, please make the cheapest intelligent bid and I will tell you why I like my hand'.


The reference to making the cheapest intelligent bid is the important part.

Get out of responder's way: maximize the space in which he can tell opener why he is bidding 4SF: it is critical, for example, to be able to establish one's fit below game, which, incidentally, often allows opener to then convey some strength information.

Imagine responder has a gf hand in spades, after 1C 1H 1S, with some mild slam interest.

If opener is allowed to jump, say to 3N, now responder's 4S means that cuebidding starts at the 5-level, and the notion that opener can use keycard is absurd...he knows so little about responder's hand that keycard almost surely will leave the partnership guessing.

Contrast that to 1C 1H 1S 2D 2N 3S

Responder has shown a hand with at least some interest in slam (tho by no means does it show a powerhouse...opener is, after all, relatively unlimited).

Opener can now show a minimum by bidding 4S. With any slam interest, in context, opener can cuebid. Some partnerships will have some form of serious or non-serious 3N here, to further differentiate strength.

Say opener has some 4=1=3=5 17 count, and is faced with 2D. Yes, one can use 3N here, if one agrees that this is precisely what it shows (unnecessary, space-consuming jumps in constructive auctions should, imo, convey very specific, tightly constrained information), but say he bids 2N. Responder, who was looking for a heart preference with his 3=5=3=2 13 count, bids 3N. Ok, he'd bid the same way with a 15 count, so opener bids 4N. It would be rare for the hands to fail in 4N with 30 hcp between them.

So my answer, long-winded tho it is, is for opener not to jump around in response to FSF, unless by prior agreement the jump shows a very specific holding.

As an example, a jump to 3H might show specifically 4=3=1=5 with 16+m hcp. That allows responder to gauge the combined values.

[dsLawsd]

While I did not play XYZ before I am a convert now. Some of the recent months of the D22 Forum bidding quiz are most useful- it is online now. The extra advantage of using a 2♣ relay to 2♦ for invite type hands has convinced me.

I agree with all or parts of several comments above.

Most important is to now set a trump suit (or NT) so that space remains to explore slam below game. With extra values one or the other partner can then take needed control or cue.

Without XYZ I believe the partnership agreement should be GF to avoid confusion as usually it will be bid absent a horrible misfit.

Nice question and discussion!

[joris999]

XYZ is very diffent from 4th suit forcing.

In WYZ the bidding 1D 1H
1S 2D is artificial game forcing

2CL is puppet for 2D which can be any limit raise or to play in D

[mikeh]

joris999, on 2019-July-05, 17:39, said:

XYZ is very diffent from 4th suit forcing.

In WYZ the bidding 1D 1H
1S 2D is artificial game forcing

2CL is puppet for 2D which can be any limit raise or to play in D

When the 4th suit is 2D, 4SF and xyz are exactly the same. 2D creates a gf, whether because you lay 4SF or Xyz. Now, in the posted auction to 1S, of course 2C is natural and non-forcing in 4SF methods, while it is a marionette to 2D in xyz. When not playing transfer responses to 1C, which I do in my serious partnerships, I would never play xyz in the posted auction, since I value the ability to get out in 2C too much. For me, 1S promises an unbalanced hand, with at least 5 clubs, so with my usual pile of cr^p, say 3=4=3=3 7 count with xxx in diamonds, 2C is a great contract.


Had the auction started 1D. 1H. 1S, then xyz is my preference over 4SF.

[nekthen]

I think stick to xyz, if you play it.
In general, where FSF is GF, and any other GF scenario, a bid of game shows a minimum hand. So 2N is stronger than 3N and 2H and 2S are stronger than 4H and 4S. The exact meaning of 3 level suit bids are up for discussion but to me indicate hands with big distributions.
Similarly, after a non game bid by opener, a game bid by responder, indicates nothing more to say and other bids are stronger

[mikeh]

nekthen, on 2019-July-06, 07:48, said:

I think stick to xyz, if you play it.
In general, where FSF is GF, and any other GF scenario, a bid of game shows a minimum hand. So 2N is stronger than 3N and 2H and 2S are stronger than 4H and 4S. The exact meaning of 3 level suit bids are up for discussion but to me indicate hands with big distributions.
Similarly, after a non game bid by opener, a game bid by responder, indicates nothing more to say and other bids are stronger

Really? Why on earth would anyone play a different approach over 2D as 4SF compared to 2D as xyz? Now, you may play differently but, if so, I bet you’ve never tried to analyze why. If you did, you’d realize it makes no sense at all.

In both conventions, 2D has precisely the same meaning. Any hand that would use 2D as 4SF would also bid 2D as xyz, if playingbthat instead. So wtf are you thinking, to assert that opener is to bid differently according to whether it was 4SF or xyz?


Sorry to be so blunt, but I continue to be amazed at how many people play bridge according to ‘rules’ someone taught them, without ever trying to understand the bridge logic involved.


It reminds me of some friends of mine, years ago (unfortunately he died, and she moved away) who earnestly explained to me that they never opened a weak two with a side Ace. The next day, I pretended to ask them about a hand. I gave them KQ108xx xx Axx xx, 1st seat vulnerable. They both opened 2S. They had a ‘rule’ that made no sense so even tho, if asked, they’d regurgitate the rule, they didn’t follow it.

[Stephen Tu]

mikeh, on 2019-July-06, 09:03, said:

In both conventions, 2D has precisely the same meaning. Any hand that would use 2D as 4SF would also bid 2D as xyz, if playingbthat instead.

That's not precisely true. Playing xyz, one normally has additional options with GF hands. Jumps to the 3 level are often GF with specific meanings, and some strong hands can also go through the 2nt puppet.

Whereas when playing 2d 4sAGF and modern style where most all jumps are inv only, you have to cram all GF hands that aren't simply leaps to game into 2D. So xyz 2d is a sub-set of hands that would bid 2d 4sAGF.


I do have to disagree strongly with nekthen that jumping in GF auctions should show weaker hands, especially that 2nt should show stronger hand than 3nt. You want to keep the bidding low in the most common cases and give partner room to explore alternative contracts, and also generally don't want to fast arrival jump to game opposite an unlimited hand removing room to cue bid. Jumping to 3nt to show extras (but not a ton extra; e.g. 16-17 rather than 18+) mostly works because sometimes *somebody* has to jump at some point to show an extra ace (otherwise one person with 16 just bids min because doesn't like to jump, other person with 16 also doesn't want to go beyond 3nt because might be opposite some unexciting 12 count), and because with the extra values 3nt usually just makes on power and other contracts aren't so much in play, suit are well-stopped.