[vladesch]

Playing acol.
Bidding goes 1s-2c-2d-2h
we play fourth suit forcing.
I have a 5-2-4-2
so bidding continues....
2s-3s.

Is partner showing 3 spades in this sequence?
It sounds to me as if he doesnt have 3 card support for spades, and prefers notrumps.
but has only raised spades since we dont have any other option.

[FelicityR]

Since most players play 4th suit forcing as a Game Force, if partner has a club and heart hand he/she could have bid 2NT instead of 3♠. I would take the ♠ raise as 3 card support, a potentially unlimited hand, that is not interested in no trumps.

[HardVector]

I would expect a spade fit.

[Tramticket]

FelicityR, on 2019-August-19, 07:19, said:

Since most players play 4th suit forcing as a Game Force,

Most Acol players do not play it as game-forcing (but I would). If 4SF is forcing for one round only, them 3♠ is invitational, but it is a strange sequence since a minimum 2-over-1 (say 10-11 HCPs) would probably give (false)-preference to spades at the second turn.

I would expect partner to hold a doubleton spade (likely HX). With three-card support partner would support spades at the second turn.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

even playing FSF as only forcing for one round, 3S is GF.
The given seq. is one of the very few seq., that create a GF, below 3NT,
and it establishes the spade fit.

Playing Acol 1S did only show 4+, openers 2D rebid showed 54, now a 3S
bid by responder is only inv., even after the 2/1 response.
To create a GF, responder has to go via FSF, if he wants to explore slam.
One reason: He may be missing a heart control, 4NT instead of 3S would be
KeyCard, and missing the heart control, he starts a Bidding Seq.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[vladesch]

Interesting replies.
In this case my partner intended 3s as invitational and he had 3 spades.
His reason for not bidding 3s on the second round was to find out if I had values in H.
His reasoning was that if I had no values in H then his hand was worth an invite.

He had

qxx
xxx
jx
ak9xx

[steve2005]

Tramticket, on 2019-August-19, 09:28, said:

Most Acol players do not play it as game-forcing (but I would).

Partner did a 2/1 and 4th suit.
How many ways do you need to invite? You need something forcing.
2♥ is high enough it has to be GF even playing 4sf 1rd force.

[HardVector]

vladesch, on 2019-August-19, 11:40, said:

Interesting replies.
In this case my partner intended 3s as invitational and he had 3 spades.
His reason for not bidding 3s on the second round was to find out if I had values in H.
His reasoning was that if I had no values in H then his hand was worth an invite.

He had

qxx
xxx
jx
ak9xx

So, it sounds like you play 4th suit as forcing 1 round only, not game forcing. Is that your agreement, or was partner making it up on the fly? There is a BIG difference in the meaning of the bid, therefore the number of spades shown depending upon whether the 4th suit was GF or 1 round.

[vladesch]

HardVector, on 2019-August-19, 19:40, said:

So, it sounds like you play 4th suit as forcing 1 round only, not game forcing. Is that your agreement, or was partner making it up on the fly? There is a BIG difference in the meaning of the bid, therefore the number of spades shown depending upon whether the 4th suit was GF or 1 round.

We've been playing it as not completely game forcing, but strong interest in game.
Not something we have talked about a lot. Just sort of a mutual assumption.

Might consider to changing to GF in light of this thread.

[P_Marlowe]

vladesch, on 2019-August-19, 11:40, said:

Interesting replies.
In this case my partner intended 3s as invitational and he had 3 spades.
His reason for not bidding 3s on the second round was to find out if I had values in H.
His reasoning was that if I had no values in H then his hand was worth an invite.

He had

qxx
xxx
jx
ak9xx

He has an invite, bidding 3S in 2nd round showes the invite.

I may understand, FSF and passing 2S, which is a reasonable plan, as Long as a 3D
response to the FSF inquiry showes add. value.
Openers 2S Response showes a min opener, i.e. approx. 10-12/13, so getting out in 2S
is not bad.
Even IF (!!!) you treat 3S as invitational, the hand your Partner holds is not invitational
opposite a min opener, the hand is a min. for an invitational raise.

With Kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

vladesch, on 2019-August-19, 11:40, said:

Interesting replies.
In this case my partner intended 3s as invitational and he had 3 spades.
His reason for not bidding 3s on the second round was to find out if I had values in H.
His reasoning was that if I had no values in H then his hand was worth an invite.

He had

qxx
xxx
jx
ak9xx

Your partner's reasoning is faulty. The absolutely worst heart holding opposite xxx is xxx or Jxx. If this sequence is invitational then how would he make a slam try with 3 card spade support? There are a limited number of sequences available so using 2 of those auctions to show the same hand type and not having any possible auction to show another important hand type is typically sub-optimal.

[helene_t]

I don't think this promises 3-card support. Bidding the same way with Ax-xxx-AKx-AQxxx would be reasonable. Therefore I think that 4♣ from opener now would be natural. A natural 3NT now doesn't make too much sense, so opener could use 3NT as some kind of waiting bid, showing some slam interest but a hand that doesn't meet the requirements for a control bid in your control bidding style.

As Marlowe says, even if you don't play FSF as GF, this 3♠ bid should be forcing. But if there can be doubt about this then it shows that you should be playing FSF as GF since otherwise it is too complicated to sort out which subsequent bids are forcing.

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on 2019-August-22, 16:25, said:

I don't think this promises 3-card support. Bidding the same way with Ax-xxx-AKx-AQxxx would be reasonable.

This looks like a 2NT continuation to me, which ought to uncover whether Opener has 6 spades, 3 clubs or is 5242/5341. I dislike eating up an entire round of bidding space on a hand where we desperately need to gather more information before deciding on a contract.