[Kungsgeten]

So in "standard" Swedish Club when the bidding starts 1C-1D opener may have a weak balanced hand, or any strong hand. Responder has 0-7 hcp. In Polish Club both bids covers some more hand types.
Now usually openers 1M rebids may be three card suits, if opener has the weak balanced hand without a four card major (rebidding 1NT would be strong). The 1M rebids are non-forcing and could be bid with the strong hand too.

In our version of Swedish Club we've expanded the use of the 1H rebid, making it forcing for one round. We currently use opener's 1H rebid as:

a) 3+H weak balanced.
b) Unbalanced extra values but not game forcing (something like an Acol Two)
c) Most game forcing hands.
d) 4-4-1-4, 17-19.

If opener rebids 1S instead, it is still non-forcing with 3+S (if strong then 4+S 17-19 hcp and may have longer side-suit).

After the 1H rebid responder currently only have two options:

1C-1D; 1H--
1S = Waiting bid. Opener bids 1NT with the weak NT hand (and responder sets the contract).
1NT = Exactly 4S, not 4H. Not forcing. Opener passes or bids 2S with the weak NT hand.

The reason for the 1NT rebid is to find a 4-4 spade fit when opener is 4-4 in the majors.


One thing I've been considering is to make opener promise 4+S in the sequence 1C-1D; 1S. The reason for this would be to avoid 4-3 fits when responder raises, and opener only have a three card suit. It also avoids 3-3 spade fits when responder chooses to pass the 1S rebid. This would mean that opener rebids 1H with all weak balanced hands that doesn't have 4S (and perhaps also with 4-4 majors if the spades are weak). So now opener's 1H rebid would instead be:

a) Weak balanced without 4S (or possibly 4-4 majors).
others) As above

I'm thinking that responder's rebids could be something like this:

1C-1D; 1H---
1S = Waiting (like above). Not exactly 4H.
1NT = Non-forcing (0-7) with 4H.
2m = Non-forcing (maybe 4-7 to give some positive information in case opener is strong) with 5+m and 4H.
2H = Non-forcing (4-7) with 4H and 5S.


The main downside to this method (compared to the first) is when opener has 4-4 majors, now one of them will be lost. The gain is that we don't risk Moysians, and that opener rebids 1H with more hands (which is usually a better sequence, since opener gets to declare 1NT etc).

[nige1]

 Kungsgeten, on 2019-July-20, 03:37, said:

So in "standard" Swedish Club when the bidding starts 1C-1D opener may have a weak balanced hand, or any strong hand. Responder has 0-7 hcp. In Polish Club both bids covers some more hand types.
Now usually openers 1M rebids may be three card suits, if opener has the weak balanced hand without a four card major (rebidding 1NT would be strong). The 1M rebids are non-forcing and could be bid with the strong hand too.

In our version of Swedish Club we've expanded the use of the 1H rebid, making it forcing for one round. We currently use opener's 1H rebid as:

a) 3+H weak balanced.
b) Unbalanced extra values but not game forcing (something like an Acol Two)
c) Most game forcing hands.
d) 4-4-1-4, 17-19.

If opener rebids 1S instead, it is still non-forcing with 3+S (if strong then 4+S 17-19 hcp and may have longer side-suit).

After the 1H rebid responder currently only have two options:

1C-1D; 1H--
1S = Waiting bid. Opener bids 1NT with the weak NT hand (and responder sets the contract).
1NT = Exactly 4S, not 4H. Not forcing. Opener passes or bids 2S with the weak NT hand.

The reason for the 1NT rebid is to find a 4-4 spade fit when opener is 4-4 in the majors.


One thing I've been considering is to make opener promise 4+S in the sequence 1C-1D; 1S. The reason for this would be to avoid 4-3 fits when responder raises, and opener only have a three card suit. It also avoids 3-3 spade fits when responder chooses to pass the 1S rebid. This would mean that opener rebids 1H with all weak balanced hands that doesn't have 4S (and perhaps also with 4-4 majors if the spades are weak). So now opener's 1H rebid would instead be:

a) Weak balanced without 4S (or possibly 4-4 majors).
others) As above

I'm thinking that responder's rebids could be something like this:

1C-1D; 1H---
1S = Waiting (like above). Not exactly 4H.
1NT = Non-forcing (0-7) with 4H.
2m = Non-forcing (maybe 4-7 to give some positive information in case opener is strong) with 5+m and 4H.
2H = Non-forcing (4-7) with 4H and 5S.


The main downside to this method (compared to the first) is when opener has 4-4 majors, now one of them will be lost. The gain is that we don't risk Moysians, and that opener rebids 1H with more hands (which is usually a better sequence, since opener gets to declare 1NT etc).

Alternatively, after the 1♣ opener ....

• 1♥ = ART. Denies 4 ♥s.
• 1♠ = ART. 4+ ♥s

The theory being that, especially in competition, it is easier to lose a ♥ fit than a ♠ fit.
....

[Kungsgeten]

 nige1, on 2019-July-20, 05:27, said:

Alternatively, after the 1♣ opener ....

• 1♥ = ART. Denies 4 ♥s.
• 1♠ = ART. 4+ ♥s

The theory being that, especially in competition, it is easier to lose a ♥ fit than a ♠ fit.
....

I guess we're still talking about 1C-1D; 1M and not the direct 1M responses to 1C?

I agree that a heart fit maybe should have higher priority, due to spades being the boss suit. However in the sequence 1C-1D; 1M, both opponents have already had time to enter the auction. Sure its possible that they enter now anyway, but I think the risk is lower.

Some downsides of having 1C-1D; 1S as showing 4+H:

1. Responder (usually) can't pass. This is sort of a two-sided sword ofcourse. It isn't common for responder to pass the 1S rebid even if its non-forcing, but my experience have been good when it has happend.
2. Responder will declare a 2H contract if responder has support, unless special methods are used (which would probably remove a natural rebid).
3. There's less space to find an alternative fit, mostly because opener usually don't want to bypass 2H next round.

Using 1C-1D; 1S as 4+ spades works nicely when opener have the strong hand, we currently play:

1C-1D; 1S---
Pass = Weak (usually 0-4) with 3+ spades.
1NT = To play vs weak NT. F1 vs strong hand (but doesn't promise any values).
2CDH = Natural, about 5-7.
2S = 4 card support, about 4-7.

1C-1D; 1S-1NT;
2C = 5+ spades. Now 2D asks side suit.
2D = 4 spades, 5+ diamonds. We actually play this as 4-4-1-4 and 15-16 though, since our natural 1D is wide-ranging.
2H = 4 spades, 5+ hearts.
2S = 4 spades, 5+ clubs.

[nige1]

I'm afraid that I was confused about the auction and, anyway, it was just a half-baked idea

[straube]

Didn’t you once use 1H as your strong rebid, your 1S and 1N as your weak NT rebids?

As it is now, you haven’t clarified which hand type opener has with his 1H rebid and you’re losing a lot of sequences. Also 1C-1D, 1H-1N as 0-7 with 4 spades isn’t best use if you knew opener was strong.

I’d go so far as having both 1H and 1S rebids as artificial and strong.

[Kungsgeten]

 nige1, on 2019-July-20, 17:39, said:

I'm afraid that I was confused about the auction and, anyway, it was just a half-baked idea

No problem, I appreciate your reply.

 straube, on 2019-July-20, 17:48, said:

Didn’t you once use 1H as your strong rebid, your 1S and 1N as your weak NT rebids?

As it is now, you haven’t clarified which hand type opener has with his 1H rebid and you’re losing a lot of sequences. Also 1C-1D, 1H-1N as 0-7 with 4 spades isn’t best use if you knew opener was strong.

I’d go so far as having both 1H and 1S rebids as artificial and strong.

No we haven't used the 1H rebid as strong only, it has always included (semi)natural weak NT hands. We played the 1NT rebid as ART 22+ before though, but now use it as 18-19 NT (since we have removed our Mexican 2D opening).

A guideline we try to follow when making system design choices is that it shouldn't be worse than a standard natural system. When opener has 12-14 NT most pairs will, in an uncontested auction, find a 4-4 major fit if responder has say 5+ hcp. If opener's 1NT rebid after 1C-1D showed the weak NT hand, we would likely miss the 4-4 major fits that everyone else finds. The issue I bring in this thread is also in line with this philosophy: we will currently end up in 4-3 fits which others do not. The solution I present has the problem though that when opener has both majors, he will only be able to show one of them.

I'm fairly satisfied with the strong rebids in our structure after 1C-1D, even though there could be improvements. The worst sequence I would say is 1C-1D; 2H which shows 5+H (and 0-3 spades) and 17-19. I actually have an idea to make this 2H rebid promise 6+ hearts instead, with 5H and 4+m hands going through the artificial 1H rebid instead. This would make this sequence even more complex though. Strong hands are usually the worst part of natural systems, so we think our methods will beat those systems even though our methods could probably be even better if we focused more on the strong hands.

Actually 1C-1D; 1H-1NT as 0-7 with 4 spades really isn't much of a problem. Since the 1H rebid includes a pretty wide range of hands we currently let opener describe his hand (similar to how many pairs play after a strong 2C opening). Opener's continuations are very similar whether responder uses the waiting 1S bid, or the 4 spades 1NT bid.

1C-1D; 1H-1S;
1NT = 12-14 NT
2C = Unbalanced GF. Not primary spades, not 5-5 with a major.
2D = 4-4-1-4, 17-19. Personally I'd like to remove this and just treat it as balanced though.
2M = Non-forcing but extras, 19-22.
2NT = 25+ NT.
3m = Non-forcing but extras, 19-22.

1C-1D; 1H-1NT;
Pass = 12-14 NT, not 4 spades.
2C = Like above.
2D = Like above.
2H = Like above.
2S = 12-14 NT, 4 spades.
2NT = Like above.
3m = Like above.
3S = INV.

[nullve]

 nige1, on 2019-July-20, 05:27, said:

Alternatively, after the 1♣ opener ....

• 1♥ = ART. Denies 4 ♥s.
• 1♠ = ART. 4+ ♥s

Inspired by this:

1♣-1♦; ?:

1♥ = 12-14 BAL, either 4 S or no major / strong options
...1♠ = 0-4 / 5-7, either 3S3-H or 4+ S
......P = 12-14, 4 S
......1N = 12-14, no major
......(...)
...1N = 5-7, either 3-S4H or 2-S3H
......(...)
......2♥ = 12-14, 4 H
......(...)
...2♣ = 5-7, "3-S3-H5+C". Necessary with 2245
...2♦ = 5-7, "3-S3-H5+D". Necessary with 2254.
...2♥ = 5-7, 3-S5+H
...(...)
1♠ = 12-14 BAL, 3-S4H / strong options
(...)

Here the idea is that if a Moysian is reached after

* 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1♠-P, at least it will be played at the 1-level;
* 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1N; 2♥-P, at least the hand with only 3 trumps is not (4333).

[awm]

Looking at these sequences, I'm wondering if you'd do better to put all weak NT hands through the 1♥ rebid. You can still find 4-4 spade fits (but not 4-4 heart fits), but this seems to be situation in your current method too. The 1♠ rebid would then be (always) strong and can be treated as forcing. One possibility might be:

1♥ = weak NT, or a strong hand with 0-3♥ and 0-4♠, or very strong balanced
... 1♠ = not four spades (now 1nt = weak NT, 2m = 5+ suit strong but NF, 2M = clubs/diamonds and very strong)
... 1NT = four spades (now pass/2♠ = weak NT, 2m = 5+ suit strong but NF, 2♥ = very strong minor(s) without four spades)
1♠ = strong with 4+♥ and 0-3♠
1NT = strong balanced
2♣ = strong both majors
2♦ + available to handle 5+♠ hands and maybe some balanced ranges

[Kungsgeten]

 awm, on 2019-July-21, 03:31, said:

Looking at these sequences, I'm wondering if you'd do better to put all weak NT hands through the 1♥ rebid. You can still find 4-4 spade fits (but not 4-4 heart fits), but this seems to be situation in your current method too.

Our current method finds all 4-4 major fits, but will also find 4-3 major fits in the case that opener doesn't have a four card major. This is how we find 4-4 heart fits:

1C-1D;
1H-1S; (opener has 12-14 NT with 3--4 hearts, and if only 3 hearts then 3-3 or 2-3 majors, or some strong hand. Responder has basically any hand except exactly 4 spades and 0-3 hearts, which would instead rebid 1NT.)
1NT-2H; (opener has 12-14 NT with 3--4 hearts. Responder's 2H is to play with 4+ hearts.)

The new variant I'm thinking about switching to finds all 4-4 major fits, except when opener is 4-4 majors and responder has the major that opener don't show. The upside is that we don't play 4-3 fits whenever opener doesn't have a four card major.

Your suggestion leaves some more possibilities with the strong hands though, which is nice.

[straube]

I like awm's suggestion because it provides more bids for the strong hands. I wonder how you would get to 2S if responder had 5 or 6 spades and opener had a weak NT.

[Kungsgeten]

 straube, on 2019-July-21, 09:23, said:

I like awm's suggestion because it provides more bids for the strong hands. I wonder how you would get to 2S if responder had 5 or 6 spades and opener had a weak NT.

When responder has made the 1S waiting bid, and opener has shown the weak NT, then all bids by responder is to play. This is how it looks in practice:

1C-1D; 1H-1S; 1NT--- [Opener has 12-14 NT with 3--4 hearts. Responder has a negative, but not 0-7 with exactly 4S and less than 4 hearts.]
Pass = To play.
2m = To play, 5+ suit.
2H = To play, 4+ suit (since opener often will have 4 hearts).
2S = To play, 5+ suit.

[straube]

So 1C-1D, 1H-1N shows exactly 4 spades.

[Kungsgeten]

 straube, on 2019-July-21, 11:55, said:

So 1C-1D, 1H-1N shows exactly 4 spades.

Yes, it shows 0--7 hcp with exactly 4 spades and 0--3 hearts. The reason for that bid is to find a 4-4 spade fit in case opener has 12--14 NT with 4-4 majors. The bid is non-forcing (but strong opener always bids again), so 12--14 NT will either pass or bid 2S in the case that he has 4-4 majors.

With 5+ spades, or 4-4 majors, or in many cases with 4 spades and 5+ minor which doesn't want to "risk" playing 1NT, responder will bid the 1S waiting bid. Thus 1C-1D; 1H-1NT has a very specific purpose and a narrow target.

[straube]

At a minimum, you could assign 1C-1D, 1H-2m as 4S/5m. Probably 2M should mean something as well.

What if you assigned 1H to weak NT and then used sometimes like DONT such that you rarely played a contract of 1N?

P-hearts, sometimes four if no other bid
1S-a 5m or 4333
.....1N-pass or correct
1N-spades and a minor
2C-minors
2D-reds
2H-majors

Sure it can be improved

[Kungsgeten]

 straube, on 2019-July-21, 14:57, said:

At a minimum, you could assign 1C-1D, 1H-2m as 4S/5m. Probably 2M should mean something as well.

What if you assigned 1H to weak NT and then used sometimes like DONT such that you rarely played a contract of 1N?

P-hearts, sometimes four if no other bid
1S-a 5m or 4333
.....1N-pass or correct
1N-spades and a minor
2C-minors
2D-reds
2H-majors

Sure it can be improved

Yes, we should use 1C-1D; 1H-2X as something useful. The reason why we don't is that the 1S waiting bid idea is a pretty new addition to the system, and we wanted to try the basic structure before adding extra special bids. I think two-suiters with 4H could be nice candidates, in case opener only have 3H. We have some new ideas too which if implemented would make responder answer 1D also with 5D and 4C in the 8-10 hcp range. If we do this, then we'll probably play 1C-1D; 1M-2C as this hand type.

It would be possible to play 1C-1D; 1H as 12--14 NT, sure. Some inspiration of having 1C-1D; 1H-1S as a waiting bid has been taken from how some of the Dutch top pairs play after their 2+ short club (12-14 NT, 18-19 NT, or natural). After the "negative, natural, balanced, or 7-10 4-4 majors" 1D response they rebid 1H with 12--14 NT but also with 5+C and 4H. Now 1S is waiting and if opener bids 1NT they use the normal 1NT system I think.

In our system though I think it is better to put some strong hands into 1H. It seems a bit wasteful for all strong hands to be handled at 1S+, but it could for sure be done (strong diamond systems could be used as inspiration). I like your idea of an "escape system" over 1C-1D; 1H, but I'm not sure I can see the main advantages over our current methods.

[petterb]

Pass on 1♦ = 12-14
Other bids = 17+

Works just fine.