[dsLawsd]

Sabine agrees with my 2 NT then- except that I don't want to play this system at all pard- please let's do something better including defining 2♣ more rationally.

Some choices include using Aces Scientific, using 2♦ as something with 2♥ as a second negative (and Kokish or Birthright as ways to distinguish hearts and balanced 23+).

And I have seen many pairs do well by bidding controls.

And though I hate 2 NT bids, it does put us in the slam zone and partner can bid naturally without fear on the next round knowing that I did not have a singleton in hand.

Some pairs do not use 2♣ enough by not counting extra length enough because of nebulous responses in use.

Edgar Kaplan in the K-S system has some pretty good ideas to consider also of course.

[Winstonm]

FelicityR, on 2019-June-06, 00:44, said:

The original post has been edited to reflect our system on the night. My apologies.

Thanks. My general thoughts on strong 2C in 2/1 is that it is so imprecise that pairs using it must be willing to accept a degree of error in their bidding or narrow their range of hand types that are allowed to be opened 2C.

When BobH was alive, we went over and over this and decided that the most likely hands to be held for 2C were of 2 basic types: strong NT, strong 1 suiters. We created a system that was quite precise for these hands (and for 2-suiters of 5/5 or longer). It turned out to be a semi-relay method.

With that said, playing in your system I would place my emphasis on the waiting bid, 2D, because it is more important for the 2C opener to describe that hand type than it is for responder to identify his hand type. Someone else said something similar and I agree - quite strict requirements for responding in a suit or NT and heavy use of 2D wait. This is even more true the stronger is the 2C opening requirement

[Stephen Tu]

I disagree. I think it is better for responder to describe. If responder can show 5cd suit and slam values it will be easier for opener to subsequently take captaincy and count tricks. It works worse imo for responder to wait in the weeds then guess where/how many opener's winners are; opener has too many features to describe in the space available.

And in my experience, strict suit quality requirements works against you, since kxxxx responder vs aqx opener seems more likely than aqxxx responder vs kxx opener.

[marklaf]

Making a positive response over a 2 club open should show more than a ragged 5 card suit. It surprises me that so many responders want to take control of this hand. Bid 2 diamonds and wait.

[miamijd]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-June-06, 15:37, said:

I don't see that 3♠ shows 5.

Do you play a second negative over 3♣ ? you probably should if 2♦ can be 0-11 and that is almost certainly 3♦.

What do you bid with KQxx, xxx, xxx, xxx where 3N is an option but only if partner has the spades open not a red suit or KQxx, xxx, xxxxx, x where anything could be right and you're snookered if 3♦ is unavailable.

2H immediate double negative is a much better option than cheaper minor (which is just dreadful). A common set of agreements in the USA is:

2D: waiting; game force
2H: double negative
2S: positive in H (either 6+ H, but not a 3H or 4D bid, or else five good hearts)
2NT: positive in S (either 6+ S, but not a 3S or 4H bid. or else five good spades)
3C/D: positive in the suit
3H/S: a one-loser six-card suit with nothing outside (maybe a J or so)
3NT: a running seven-bagger (any suit headed by AKQ)
4x: a one-loser seven-card suit in the next highest strain (clubs shows diamonds, etc. - 4S shows clubs) with nothing outside

Cheers,
Mike

[Winstonm]

Stephen Tu, on 2019-June-06, 20:49, said:

I disagree. I think it is better for responder to describe. If responder can show 5cd suit and slam values it will be easier for opener to subsequently take captaincy and count tricks. It works worse imo for responder to wait in the weeds then guess where/how many opener's winners are; opener has too many features to describe in the space available.

And in my experience, strict suit quality requirements works against you, since kxxxx responder vs aqx opener seems more likely than aqxxx responder vs kxx opener.

The distinction is based on allowed opening 2C bids. If you open strong hands that would make an inviting dummy and are looking for fits, the 2C structure works against you because of the loss of space inherent in opening at the 2-level. IMO, it is better to have a hand with its own strong suit or a NT hand before opening 2C. Others may disagree.

Personally, I think forcing club systems are superior; however, 2/1 is playable if you like it simpler and are OK with some imprecise sequences, especially in 2C opening sequences.

[msjennifer]

Sirs/Miss/Madam, we use the precision type of responses over 2C standard opening.Since there are other ways to express game value hands by reverse bids, jump shifts ,splinter bids, et al,we open 2C on a hand with the following conditions 1) a balanced hand having 23+HJCP and no trump pattern with at least one partial guard in every suit.5+ honour tricks. OR 2)A major suit singlesuiter with 5plus honour tricks and 9 plus winners,OR 3) a minor suit singlesuiter hand with 5 plus honour tricks and 10 plus winners. WE use the following responses 1)2D either 0 t0 7 HCP( OR less than 1 and half honour tricks) 2)2H/S WITH 8 plus HCP and 5 plus bid suit. 3C/D with 8 plus HCP and 5 plus suit headed by at least Q. 3) 2NT with 8 or 9 HCP and a balanced hand with a guard in at least 3 suits or 10 plus HCP balanced but may lack a guard in sometimes 2 suits, Openers further bids are natural but one can use precision system bids also. However,i humbly request yourself not to consider these as my "suggestions" and I do not insist this treatment as very ideal. With strange partners I use the usually used standard treatment with the 2D waiting bid etc. THANKS.

[msjennifer]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-June-06, 07:36, said:

I would respond 2♠. There is no way that I'm going to be able to get over that I have 5 spades to a top honour and 11 points if I don't (but I'm not used to the sequences after a waiting 2♦, we play it negative and although can be better than most if bal, not as good as this).

Over 3♣ I bid 3N (which for us is natural but forcing to 4N unless a suit is known to be open)

Sir,I fully agree with your 2S response.I shall bid the same but our treatment over 3C shall be cue the ace if there is one.

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2019-June-06, 21:37, said:

2H immediate double negative is a much better option than cheaper minor (which is just dreadful). A common set of agreements in the USA is:

2D: waiting; game force
2H: double negative
2S: positive in H (either 6+ H, but not a 3H or 4D bid, or else five good hearts)
2NT: positive in S (either 6+ S, but not a 3S or 4H bid. or else five good spades)
3C/D: positive in the suit
3H/S: a one-loser six-card suit with nothing outside (maybe a J or so)
3NT: a running seven-bagger (any suit headed by AKQ)
4x: a one-loser seven-card suit in the next highest strain (clubs shows diamonds, etc. - 4S shows clubs) with nothing outside

Cheers,
Mike

This may be true but is irrelevant, the OP is not playing 2♥ double negative, so we have to go from there.

[microcap]

I cannot stress enough that in my experience, you should bid 2 diamonds over 2 clubs 99% of the time.

We all know that opening 2 ♣ bids cause problems. That's one reason why precision was invented and played by so many top pairs. It makes no sense to take up any space that partner might need to describe his/her hand.

Most of the time, partner has either a big balanced hand or a strong one suiter. Any NT bid wrong sides the hand or gives partner zero useful information. So don't ever bid NT on these hands with a bunch of scratchy side cards.

Just bid 2D and see what partner says.

[FelicityR]

Thank you for all your replies. Here is the whole hand with our far from perfect bidding sequence. I decide to call 3NT myself, ruling out bidding 2♦, 2♠ or 2NT for the simple reason the 3NT bid was descriptive and available, and perhaps 90% of the time most of us have a Yarborough or some similarly poor hand opposite opener's strong 2♣ opener.

---

It turned out to be the right contract at MPs played from the right side of the table. My dear partner thought a while before bidding 6NT and admitted afterwards "When you bid 3NT, Felicity, I trusted you to have the ♠K at the very least!" But we could have been off ♠AK if I held. So we were lucky.

---

I'll be further interested how you would bid the original hands using 2/1, SAYC or Acol after a 2♣ opener. My son, who is a better player than me and uses Precision said that it could even go wrong in his system with North ending up as the declarer.

[bravejason]

Since 3NT describes the hand, I think you have to bid it. Yes, it effectively uses two levels of bidding space, but that’s a different issue.

[GrahamJson]

Personally I think that using a waiting 2D is way overdone these days, at least from what I have seen on BBO. On this hand a 2S response is fine. If opener rebids 2NT you can bid 3. If he rebids 3H you raise to four. If he rebids a minor you can rebid 3NT (or raise to 4D if you prefer).

Suppose you use a waiting 2D. If partner rebids 2NT you can transfer to 3S but then what. You are a bit good to rebid 3NT and 4NT takes up space. If partner rebids a suit I guess you can raise or bid spades, but how do you get over the fact you have an eleven count? I dare say a well rehearsed partnership might have methods, but for most I think it makes sense to get the hand off your chest early with 2S and then sit back knowing you have said your piece.

With the actual hands 2C-2S-3C-3NT-4C-4H-6NT looks like a reasonable sequence.

[GrahamJson]

Personally I think that using a waiting 2D is way overdone these days, at least from what I have seen on BBO. On this hand a 2S response is fine. If opener rebids 2NT you can bid 3. If he rebids 3H you raise to four. If he rebids a minor you can rebid 3NT (or raise to 4D if you prefer).

Suppose you use a waiting 2D. If partner rebids 2NT you can transfer to 3S but then what. You are a bit good to rebid 3NT and 4NT takes up space. If partner rebids a suit I guess you can raise or bid spades, but how do you get over the fact you have an eleven count? I dare say a well rehearsed partnership might have methods, but for most I think it makes sense to get the hand off your chest early with 2S and then sit back knowing you have said your piece.

With the actual hands 2C-2S-3C-3NT-4C-4H-6NT looks like a reasonable sequence.

[Winstonm]

msjennifer, on 2019-June-07, 03:40, said:

Sirs/Miss/Madam, we use the precision type of responses over 2C standard opening.Since there are other ways to express game value hands by reverse bids, jump shifts ,splinter bids, et al,we open 2C on a hand with the following conditions 1) a balanced hand having 23+HJCP and no trump pattern with at least one partial guard in every suit.5+ honour tricks. OR 2)A major suit singlesuiter with 5plus honour tricks and 9 plus winners,OR 3) a minor suit singlesuiter hand with 5 plus honour tricks and 10 plus winners. WE use the following responses 1)2D either 0 t0 7 HCP( OR less than 1 and half honour tricks) 2)2H/S WITH 8 plus HCP and 5 plus bid suit. 3C/D with 8 plus HCP and 5 plus suit headed by at least Q. 3) 2NT with 8 or 9 HCP and a balanced hand with a guard in at least 3 suits or 10 plus HCP balanced but may lack a guard in sometimes 2 suits, Openers further bids are natural but one can use precision system bids also. However,i humbly request yourself not to consider these as my "suggestions" and I do not insist this treatment as very ideal. With strange partners I use the usually used standard treatment with the 2D waiting bid etc. THANKS.

I would add a larger range of NTs. Imo, like you I think it better to limit the types of hands that are opened 2C.

With your structure, I would recommend you think about this kind of response structure.
2D-waiting, automatic except for total double negative
2H-double negative
Positive bids: 2S/3C/3D/3H show shortness, 2NT positive without shortness. Opener's bid now sets the suit.

Obviously, the problem in this construct is that strong 5431 and 5422 hands present problems of playing in a 5-2. As nothing is perfect, this is the price one pays.

[pescetom]

FelicityR, on 2019-June-07, 09:26, said:

I'll be further interested how you would bid the original hands using 2/1, SAYC or Acol after a 2♣ opener. My son, who is a better player than me and uses Precision said that it could even go wrong in his system with North ending up as the declarer.

Pretty sure we would have called 6C, less sure that S would convert to 6NT at MP, but it does look possible. He knows N lacks one of AK clubs or A spades and is still confident of slam, so trusting his K spades at NT he can count 12 tricks in the former case and 11 plus the probable K hearts in the second.
2C 2D
4C 4H
4S 5C
5D 5S
6C 6N
p

[Cyberyeti]

2♣-2♠-3♣-3N-4N-6N for us

[GrahamJson]

pescetom, on 2019-June-07, 14:04, said:

Pretty sure we would have called 6C, less sure that S would convert to 6NT at MP, but it does look possible. He knows N lacks one of AK clubs or A spades and is still confident of slam, so trusting his K spades at NT he can count 12 tricks in the former case and 11 plus the probable K hearts in the second.
2C 2D
4C 4H
4S 5C
5D 5S
6C 6N
p

This sequence may work with the actual responding hand, but what if it were weaker. The jump to 4C commits to at least 5C despite having three top losers. Also opener seems to be driving to slam when responder has shown nothing beyond the heart ace (I assume that is what the 4H bid means). Suppose responder holds something like QJxxx xx xxx xxx then the 4C bid takes you past 3NT, which is where you want to be.

[pescetom]

GrahamJson, on 2019-June-08, 02:54, said:

This sequence may work with the actual responding hand, but what if it were weaker. The jump to 4C commits to at least 5C despite having three top losers. Also opener seems to be driving to slam when responder has shown nothing beyond the heart ace (I assume that is what the 4H bid means). Suppose responder holds something like QJxxx xx xxx xxx then the 4C bid takes you past 3NT, which is where you want to be.

It's a risk, of course, but so are the alternatives - opening as some level of 2NT, with an unbalanced hand unsuitable for quantitative bidding, or opening 2C 2D 3C and then trying to stop on a dime in 3nt, which still relies on responder stopping spades. I would take my chances imposing trumps.

[mikestar13]

danhputnam, on 2019-June-06, 07:15, said:

I had a partner who felt the same way. We finally agreed that 2♣-2NT meant three kings and nothing else.

Ah, the Magi Convention. It appears in several places in Don Varvel's An Unassuming Club notes. Actually as good a use as any for a notrump bid that should normally never be made.