[nekthen]

I have noticed much discussion on what to do with 5♠ and 4♥ GF. Some were advocating 3♠, but this seems a bit wasteful. Assuming we play Stayman (Puppet), RSTs, and 4 minor swiss transfer and 4 major is to play we have 3 Spades and 3N available.
Others were suggesting 3S as puppet to 3N allowing a 4 level bid to be natural and slammish. I guess that you can also pass 3N
So does this mean that 3N is 5♠ and 4♥?
Also there are a number of ways to get to 4 of a major with 6+ cards
2N 4M - weak I want to declare
2N 4m 4M - weak I want you to declare
2N 3red 3M 4M - would have looked for slam if partner had broken the transfer
2N 3S 3N 4M - presumably this is forcing to slam. Could this be rkcb responses?

Does anyone use this structure? Any obvious gaps?

I can see one. Minor two suiters. I suppose this could be covered by 4N as a replacement for quantitative, which on my view is a waste when 2N has such a narrow range

[Cyberyeti]

We use:

3♣ - 5 card stayman
3red - transfers
3♠ - GF one or both minors - puppet to 3N
3N - nat but you could play something artificial here
4♣ - gerber
4♦- both majors weak or very strong slam inv+ (3♥-3♠-4♥ is the mild slam invite)
4M to play, shapely

over 3♣ we play 3♦ as no 5M but also not 2 spades and 2-3 hearts (we bid 3N with those major suit holdings) and now you can either puppet your majors or bid the ones you have.

3♥ over 3♦ as I don't have 4 hearts unless I also have 5 spades has merit as now opener rightsides pretty much anything except the 4-4 heart fit when responder is 5-4.
3♠ over 3♦ is I have 4 hearts but not 4♠
3N over 3♦ is 4-4 M without ambitions beyond 3N
4N is a quantitative slam try likely but not certain to be 4-4M

[nekthen]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-June-02, 06:39, said:

over 3♣ we play 3♦ as no 5M but also not 2 spades and 2-3 hearts (we bid 3N with those major suit holdings) and now you can either puppet your majors or bid the ones you have.

3♥ over 3♦ as I don't have 4 hearts unless I also have 5 spades has merit as now opener rightsides pretty much anything except the 4-4 heart fit when responder is 5-4.
3♠ over 3♦ is I have 4 hearts but not 4♠
3N over 3♦ is 4-4 M without ambitions beyond 3N
4N is a quantitative slam try likely but not certain to be 4-4M

Not sure I understand 3N. If using 5 card Stayman, you might bid 3♣ holding 3-3 majors and after 3♦ you would bid 3N. So you might be 4-4 but it is not necessarily so.

[shyams]

nekthen, on 2019-June-02, 04:54, said:

Also there are a number of ways to get to 4 of a major with 6+ cards
2N 4M - weak I want to declare
2N 4m 4M - weak I want you to declare
2N 3red 3M 4M - would have looked for slam if partner had broken the transfer
2N 3S 3N 4M - presumably this is forcing to slam. Could this be rkcb responses?

My views are:
a. 2NT - 4M (I declare) sounds a bit risky in that the 20 HCP hand is dummy. Instead, it probably should default to...
b. 2NT - 4m; 4M (you declare)

c1. Slam hands suitable for RKC use the sequence 2NT - 4m; 4M - 4NT (RKC in M).
c2. Mild slam invite hands can be shown with the sequence 2NT - 3red; 3M - 4M ("I have a good hand, but I need you to have trump support + something good")

d. If you are planning to use 3S as relay to 3N, the "2N 3S 3N 4M" as natural doesn't sound right. Instead, perhaps a structure can be built for such continuations (e.g. 2N 3S 3N 4m sets m as trumps and asks for key cards; 2N 3S 3N 4M shows a splinter or fragment in M and good hand).

[Cyberyeti]

nekthen, on 2019-June-02, 09:02, said:

Not sure I understand 3N. If using 5 card Stayman, you might bid 3♣ holding 3-3 majors and after 3♦ you would bid 3N. So you might be 4-4 but it is not necessarily so.

Nope, read what 3♥ is, simply "I don't have 4+♥ unless I also have 5♠" so you bid 3♥ on 3-3, opener bids 3♠/N depending on whether he has 4 spades, and you pull 3N if you have 5-4M.

[nekthen]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-June-02, 12:09, said:

Nope, read what 3♥ is, simply "I don't have 4+♥ unless I also have 5♠" so you bid 3♥ on 3-3, opener bids 3♠/N depending on whether he has 4 spades, and you pull 3N if you have 5-4M.

So Partner opens 2N with 2 or 3 Spades and 4 Hearts and I have 5 spades and 3 Hearts I want to use Stayman in case of 5-3 heart fit.
2N 3C
3D 3H denying 4 hearts
3N denying 4 spades
? now I cannot bid 4S in case of 5-2 and miss the 5-3 spade fit

So the 54 problem is solved but there is a hole with 5 spades and 3 hearts

Or have I still missed something?

[nige1]

Pinocchio version of Muppet Stayman, which

• Finds all 4-4, 5-3, and 3-5 major fits.
• Right-sides them all.
• Finds minor fits too.

Over 2N - ??

• 3♣ = ASK for Ms. (If 5+ ♠s then 3+ ♥s)
• 3♦ = TRF 5+ ♥s. Then 3♥ = NAT 2-3 ♥s, 3♠ = NAT 5+ ♠s & 2 ♥s, 4♥ = MIN 4♥s, 3N = MAX 4 ♥s.
• 3♥ = TRF 5+ ♠s & 0-2 ♥s.
• 3♠/4♣/4♦/4♥ = TRF 6+ suit.

After 2N - 3♣ - ??

• 3♦ = ART 4 M.
• 3♥ = NEG No 4+ M. Then 3♠ = PUP to 3N. 3N = P/C 5 ♠s.
• 3♠ = NAT 5+ ♠s.
• 3N = ART 5+ ♥s, Then 4♦ = TRF 3+ ♥s.

After 2N - 3♣ - 3♦ - ??

• 3♥ = ART 4+ ♠s. Then 3♠ = NAT 3 ♠s, 3N = NAT 2 ♠s, 4♣ = MAX 4 ♠s, 4♠ = MIN 4 ♠s.
• 3♠ = PUP to 3N,
• 3N = P/C 4 ♥s.
• 4♣ = S/T 4 ♥s.
• 4♦ = ART 4 ♥s & 4 ♠s.

After 2N - 3♦ - 3♥ - ??

• 3♠ = PUP to 3N.
• 3N = P/C 4 ♠s.

Drawbacks e.g.

• Lots of Puppets and transfers to remember.
• Opponents can double for the lead and to compete.

[msjennifer]

Sir,just as a matter of information I ,forward the responses in Precision by Beladonna. 1)2NT-3S is a transfer to 3NT after which responder bids a)4C to show 5/5 in minors, b)4D shows 5/5 in D/H .c)4H shows 5/5 in H/S and d)4S shows 5/5 in S/C. .(2) 2NT-4C shows5/5 in C/H and 2NT-4D Shows 5/5 in D/S. I,politely, make it absolutely clear that I do not claim these are/are not very satisfactory bids.I also request you NOT to initiate a debate on the merits/demerits. Playing the STANDARD system with the transfers we have found the 2NT-3S bid to show 5 S and 4 H , enables tho opener to choose 3NT/4H/4S contract as per his hand.We have found it easy and practicable for those who are in the Bridge-student stage.

[Cyberyeti]

nekthen, on 2019-June-02, 18:26, said:

So Partner opens 2N with 2 or 3 Spades and 4 Hearts and I have 5 spades and 3 Hearts I want to use Stayman in case of 5-3 heart fit.
2N 3C
3D 3H denying 4 hearts
3N denying 4 spades
? now I cannot bid 4S in case of 5-2 and miss the 5-3 spade fit

So the 54 problem is solved but there is a hole with 5 spades and 3 hearts

Or have I still missed something?

You transfer and bid 3N like you do in most standard systems. Yes you CAN miss a 5-3 heart fit when the 2N opener has 5 but many systems do this.

[farcar]

5 card Stayman solves this problem
2NT - 3C
3D (no 5 card major but I either have a 4 card major or 3 Spades, or both)
3S (I have 4 hearts but NOT 4 spades!)
3NT I don't have 4 Hearts so I either have 3 or 4 Spades
4S to play in our 5-3 or 5-4 fit, or you can Bid 4H to transfer to 4S

[mikeh]

I have played many methods over 2N.

Currently, we have made the decision to ignore the risks of playing 3N with a 5-3 major fit, opener having the 5 card major. In decades of playing this style, I do not recall ever failing in 3N when 4M made. Now, my memory is not perfect and one tends to forget systemic failures, but I do think that the risk is overblown.

I don't like puppet, because simple puppet makes the 5-4 or 4-5 major responding hand difficult.

I have played a style that permits pretty much all major fits to be discovered:

3C is a form of stayman, to which the responses are:

3D, denies a 4 card major, denies 5 hearts, may have 5 spades. Responder bids 3H to ask about spades (semi-automatic) and opener bids 3S with 5 spades, and 3N otherwise

3C 3D 3S is smolen, 4S, longer hearts

3C 3D 3N is smolen, 4H, longer spades. One rare problem is when responder is too strong to risk opener passing 3N. He can bid 4N, smolen with slam interest or 5N with smolen and slam force, but this is imperfect, especially if grand is possible. However, this has never come up for me.


3C 3H: 4 hearts, may also have 4S. Responder bids 3S to puppet to 3N, and bids 3N to show spades. Again, the problem is when responder is too strong to risk 3N...one can bid 4N or 5N, but these consume precious bidding space

3C 3S: normal response, precisely 4 spades

3C 3N: shows 5 hearts: again, a problem when responder has slam ambitions. One can play transfers here, but that adds another layer of memory



All of this is not too bad, but is memory intensive and caters to low-frequency risks.

So what I currently play:


3C: stayman. Over 3D, 3M is smolen, 4 in that major, longer in the other, gf or better. If opener has both majors, he bids 4C and responder transfers into the major he wants as trump. Over 3C 3M, cheaper of other major is slammish in opener's major. Over 3M, 4m is natural and institutes 'optional keycard', see below

3D/H transfers

3S puppet to 3N. For single suited minors (bid the minor over 3N) or minor 2-suiters (bid 4M with shortness)

3N to play

4C gerber

4d/h texas


Optional keycard


2N 3C
3M 4m

Responder has a 5 card minor, may be 6 if he was looking for a major, so would be 6=4.

Opener rebids:

1st step: I don't like my hand for your minor

Other steps say I like my hand for your minor and here is a keycard response.

Seems to work well, probably because other methods are even worse, due to the space taken away to look for the major, find the minor, and show interest.

[fromageGB]

The version of 3♣ that I use to handle major asking covers the 54xx (shdc) hand. (With 45xx we transfer to hearts because 3NT then shows spades while 3♠ denies them. In this method, if responder bids a major it denies that suit as trumps.)

The replies to 3♣ are not the normal ones :
3♦ = denies 5 spades, denies 4 hearts except when 44xx
3♥ = 4 or 5 hearts but not 4 spades
3♠ = 5 spades
3NT = this reply does not exist!

Over 3♥, responder's 3♠ expresses interest in hearts, and asks the length : 3NT=4, 4♥=5.
Over 3♦, responder's 3♥ expresses interest in spades, and asks the length: 3♠=3, 3NT=denies, 4♠=4
Over 3♦, responder's 3♠ asks for 4 hearts : 3NT=denies, 4♥=4.

For your 54xx responder ;
(a) if opener's reply was 3♥, responder can just raise to 4♥. You might have missed a 5-3 spade fit, but you have a 4-4 or 4-5 heart fit. Opener has denied a 5-4 spade fit.
(b) if opener's reply was 3♦, responder gives up on hearts and asks about spades. This will find the 5-3 or 5-4 spade fit if there is one. You might have missed a 4-4 heart fit, but if you have, you have found the better 5-4 spade fit instead.

There are other methods you could use, but this approach I believe conceals opener's hand best.
All such methods leave 2NT 3♠ available as minor suit stayman or club transfer, or whatever, as well as 3NT. As a "both minors" responder has no interest in playing in opener's possible 5 card major, 3NT could be both minors with slam interest for example.