[P_Marlowe]

Wackojack, on May 13 2005, 04:50 AM, said:

Is pd trying to right side the contract with H Axx, or looking for half a stop with Jxx?

If he is interested in an half stopper, he can ask
again with 3H.

I am not going to guess, what partners intention
are, I just answer the question.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gerben42]

I bid 2♠ showing "nothing worth mentioning". If partner insists with 3♥ I bid 3NT and expect to make it. If he cannot bid NT or 3♥ himself we have to look for alternative games like 4♠ in 5-2 fit.

[P_Marlowe]

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 04:57 AM, said:

I'll worry about that when it happens. Meanwhile I keep bidding NT and making my games.

Hopefully your partner alerts your call with the words,
he may or may not have a heart stopper.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

[helene_t]

Wackojack, on May 13 2005, 11:50 AM, said:

Re bidding 3NT: Is it a general view that 3NT could be weaker than 2NT if the FSF bid is a GF? Is it the opposite if FSF is forcing to 2NT?

Playing 2/1, 3NT would be 15-17. 2NT would be 12-14 or 18-19. Same applies to responder.

[Walddk]

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 04:57 AM, said:

Also, I'd appreciate if you stop calling my opinions "pathetic".

Oh, you got that completely wrong (I can't say I am surprised). You'd better read the post again.

The explanation to partner about why we went down in 3NT is pathetic. But maybe you think it's a good excuse. If you do, then .... oh well.

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 05:21 AM, said:

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

Well, if you alert 2H, explaining it as 4th suit,
... asking for a stopper in heart, and you bid
regular NT without a stopper, ..., which promises
a stopper, than this is a (legal) psych bid, but at least
I would appreciate an alert from your partner,
that you regular psych in this situation.
I am also pretty sure, that this is even in australia
alertable ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Walddk]

helene_t, on May 13 2005, 05:24 AM, said:

Wackojack, on May 13 2005, 11:50 AM, said:

Re bidding 3NT:  Is it a general view that 3NT could be weaker than 2NT if the FSF bid is a GF?  Is it the opposite if FSF is forcing to 2NT?   

Playing 2/1, 3NT would be 15-17. 2NT would be 12-14 or 18-19. Same applies to responder.

Don't be so sure about that. Lawrence, Hardy, Kokish and other experts don't all share the same view. As always: It's a matter of agreement.

Roland

[Walddk]

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 05:21 AM, said:

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

Interesting news. 2♥ as 4th suit, a bid that is not necessarily natural, is not alertable in your world.

Roland

[Echognome]

P_Marlowe, on May 13 2005, 05:31 AM, said:

Well, if you alert 2H, explaining it as 4th suit,
... asking for a stopper in heart, and you bid
regular NT without a stopper, ..., which promises
a stopper, than this is a (legal) psych bid, but at least
I would appreciate an alert from your partner,
that you regular psych in this situation.
I am also pretty sure, that this is even in australia
alertable ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

Not sure I understand this. Who says that 4th suit is only asking for a heart stopper? I believe 4th suit is asking opener to describe his hand better. Since there is no perfect description, we have a bidding problem. Hence the poll.

I personally chose 2♠ as a waiting bid, but if someone chose 2NT as their non-descript bid (that is denying extra spade length, primary club support, or extra diamond length), I wouldn't then expect that they HAVE to have a heart stopper. It just depends on what the 2♥ specifically asks. If it specifically asks for a heart stopper, then yes 2NT should be alerted if it's regularly made without one. If it specifically asks for shape, then I'd say no it needn't be alerted. If it could be either, then I still don't think it should be alerted.

[Free]

Imo there are only 3 choices, depending on your agreements:
- 2♠ = the default answer, doesn't show anything else, no special agreements
- 2NT = 5422 distribution, responder can ask for a stopper again (so distribution before controls)
- 3♥ = showing half a stop

Personally I'm a shape-freak, so I like the 2nd agreement the most... Without agreements, 2♠ is obvious imo.

[Free]

Walddk, on May 13 2005, 11:36 AM, said:

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 05:21 AM, said:

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

Interesting news. 2♥ as 4th suit, a bid that is not necessarily natural, is not alertable in your world.

Roland

Since most people play 4th suit GF, it's not alertable in my country as well. Just like Jacoby transfers, stayman, weak-2M,... That however, is another reason than Whereagles'

[P_Marlowe]

Echognome, on May 13 2005, 05:47 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on May 13 2005, 05:31 AM, said:

Well, if you alert 2H, explaining it as 4th suit,
... asking for a stopper in heart, and you bid
regular NT without a stopper, ..., which promises
a stopper, than this is a (legal) psych bid, but at least
I would appreciate an alert from your partner,
that you regular psych in this situation.
I am also pretty sure, that this is even in australia
alertable ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

Not sure I understand this. Who says that 4th suit is only asking for a heart stopper? I believe 4th suit is asking opener to describe his hand better. Since there is no perfect description, we have a bidding problem. Hence the poll.

I personally chose 2♠ as a waiting bid, but if someone chose 2NT as their non-descript bid (that is denying extra spade length, primary club support, or extra diamond length), I wouldn't then expect that they HAVE to have a heart stopper. It just depends on what the 2♥ specifically asks. If it specifically asks for a heart stopper, then yes 2NT should be alerted if it's regularly made without one. If it specifically asks for shape, then I'd say no it needn't be alerted. If it could be either, then I still don't think it should be alerted.

Usually 2H asks for several things a, b, c
(stopper, shape, ...) in a partnership depend
predefined order.
The answer is given with the responses,
and a NT bid normaly promises the stopper.

... And if the cheapes NT bid is your default
rebid, saying "No, I dont have a, b, c",
then I would still expect an alert, because
the NT bid promieses the stopper, virtual since
the time the convetion was invented, ... if I
recall corectly 1940-1950.
In other word, such a meaning cannot readily
be expected.

With lind regards
Marlowe

PS: If you sell Qxx as stopper, I would not have any
problems with that.
PSS: If you dont alert 2NT, the absolut minimum would
be, that you tell me in case I ask, "Anything unusual?"

[whereagles]

Walddk, on May 13 2005, 10:26 AM, said:

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 04:57 AM, said:

Also, I'd appreciate if you stop calling my opinions "pathetic".

Oh, you got that completely wrong (I can't say I am surprised). You'd better read the post again.

The explanation to partner about why we went down in 3NT is pathetic. But maybe you think it's a good excuse. If you do, then .... oh well.

Roland

I didn't get anything wrong. You wrote it wrong because it was prone to two interpretations (the excuse and the way I deal with bidding situation). I guess you're not in the business of making clear posts. Obviously, you prefer to keep it muddy, so that you can later pick the interpretation that is more convenient. (I can't say I am surprised.)

Besides, I don't make up excuses. I bid what I have. Bridge is not an exact science, but you don't seem to understand that. (Again, I can't say I am surprised.)

[Walddk]

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 06:03 AM, said:

Besides, I don't make up excuses. I bid what I have.

So what do you bid when you actually have a stopper? Do you want partner to guess if you have one or not? Or will he have to understand that your theory is that bridge is not a science, and that you can bid 2NT with any holding?

If yes to all those questions: I wish you good luck!

Roland

[whereagles]

P_Marlowe, on May 13 2005, 10:31 AM, said:

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 05:21 AM, said:

No alert required. The bid shows willingness to play NT and is therefore not alertable. At least not where I play.

Well, if you alert 2H, explaining it as 4th suit,
... asking for a stopper in heart, and you bid
regular NT without a stopper, ..., which promises
a stopper, than this is a (legal) psych bid, but at least
I would appreciate an alert from your partner,
that you regular psych in this situation.
I am also pretty sure, that this is even in australia
alertable ...

Well, 4th suit doesn't ask for a stopper. It merely asks pard for further information and to keep describing his hand. So 2NT needn't promise a heart stopper.

It is routine to bid 2NT on a 5242 or 5341. In a perfect world you'd have the heart stopper, but that's not always the case. Qx of hearts is good enough for me. Maybe even Jx. With xx I'd try and bid something else, though 2NT wouldn't be out of the question if it's the lesser evil, e.g.

AJxxx
xx
AKxx
xx

I don't really feel like bidding 2/3NT, but I might do it since 2S and 3C aren't very appealing. It would probably depend on what I had for dinner, though

[P_Marlowe]

Free, on May 13 2005, 05:49 AM, said:

Imo there are only 3 choices, depending on your agreements:
- 2♠ = the default answer, doesn't show anything else, no special agreements
- 2NT = 5422 distribution, responder can ask for a stopper again (so distribution before controls)
- 3♥ = showing half a stop

Personally I'm a shape-freak, so I like the 2nd agreement the most... Without agreements, 2♠ is obvious imo.

You forgot 3D, which some play as the default
rebid instead of 2S, the resaon being,
that 6-4 is more common, showed via bidding
2S than 6-5.

Of course I learned 4th suit forcing Acol style,
i.e. 4th suit forcing promises merely invitational
strength, in case the bid is made on the 2 level.

... and in this case 3D may be to high.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

Walddk, on May 13 2005, 11:10 AM, said:

whereagles, on May 13 2005, 06:03 AM, said:

Besides, I don't make up excuses. I bid what I have.

So what do you bid when you actually have a stopper? Do you want partner to guess if you have one or not? Or will he have to understand that your theory is that bridge is not a science, and that you can bid 2NT with any holding?

If yes to all those questions: I wish you good luck!

Well, part if the answer was my previous post. The rest follows now:

I think 2NT on a half-stopper is less of a distortion of your hand's texture than 2S on a bad 5-card suit or 3C on a wimpish doubleton. Pard should keep in mind I might not have a full stopper. He doesn't have to guess anything: if he's worried about the stopper (say he has xx of hearts), he can always bid 3H:

1S 2C
2D 2H (4th suit GF)
2NT 3H (are you kidding me with 2NT or not?)
3S = yes!
3NT = no. I really have it

Bear in mind this is only MY way of bidding. Obviously you put more stress on stoppers. I don't care much about it because

1. Pard, who doesn't have 6 clubs (would have bid 3C), 3 spades (would have supported spades) or 4 diams (would have supported diams), rates to have 3 hearts 99,9% of the time. In that case, even if the hearts are xx opposite xxx, what else do you want to play if not 3NT? Unless someone has extras, any other game will be much more serious trouble.

2. Pard has points, so he'll probably have a stopper anyway.

As a final note, I once played for about 6 months with a guy who only counted points and kept bidding 3NT whenever the points were there, regardless of his hand being unsuitable or not. Surprise, surprise, he never went down because of lack of stoppers. It is my experience that stoppers are grossly overrated. In practice they seldom matter.

That's just my opinion. You can agree or disagree, that's all.

[Walddk]

When you respond to 4th suit, I am certain that most experts' order of priority is:

1. Secondary support for responder's major.

2. NT with a stopper.

3. Secondary support for responder's minor.

4. Extra length in own second bid suit.

5. Extra length in own first bid suit.

6. "Support" of 4th suit.

7. Lesser lie.

Since we can't live up to 1-6 in the example hand I gave you (1. is irrelevant in this case), we must look at 7. and choose one of 2-6 anyway. 6. is interesting in the sense what 3♥ would mean according to your agreement.

So the only question is: Which of the above is the lesser lie.

Roland

[whereagles]

Well, I don't see responses to 4th as recipe with priorities. I see it more like a matter of choosing the one bid that decribes your hand better. That's what bidding is all about, no?

Usually the most descriptive bid is showing 3-card support for responder's suit, since it usually shows a 5431 or similar shape. That is why people give it "priority". Since other bids are less descriptive, they are relegated to 2nd and 3rd choices.

And now I'm going to have lunch