[HardVector]

I first learned bridge bidding from Goren, which involved 4 card majors and strong 2 bids. It was very natural and very dependent upon good judgement. As I played more, I learned more conventions, good and bad, which evolved my bidding to the point where less guesswork was involved. When I was introduced to the concept of weak jump-shifts by responder, it was clear that it should only be done by a hand that could not make a "normal" bid. It was also described as a hand that would occur more often than the strong jump-shift sort of hand. I tried it out for awhile, and found that I had a big problem when I had a strong jump-shift hand when playing weak. That's when I found that there was no easy way to show that hand. Also, at least in N. America, playing weak jump-shifts only in competition is not alerted where as playing them all the time IS alerted.

In the last few years, however, I'm noticing that just about all the people I am mentoring or attempting to teach how to elevate their game all play weak jump-shifts as standard and don't even realize the necessity of alerting the bid. This occurs whenever I happen to play here, on BBO, as well. Even those who DO happen to play jump-shifts as strong don't seem to realize what the bid should show.

So, what I am wondering, is has the standard changed? Is weak the new standard for jump-shifts? Personally, I can't think of any quality player that I've played with who uses weak without some way of dealing with having strong hands. This is usually done with the XYZ convention. Those who don't play XYZ, all play weak only in competition, which is consistent with the ACBL convention card. This would seem to indicate that only casual players are playing this as standard, and I'm wondering, who is teaching this?

I don't know, perhaps I haven't keep up with current trends and am stuck in my own world. That's why I'm sending this out, to find out what is "normal"?

[TylerE]

It's bad club player standard, but I don't think it's good bridge.

[Stephen Tu]

HardVector, on 2019-May-07, 16:58, said:

I first learned bridge bidding from Goren, which involved 4 card majors and strong 2 bids. It was very natural and very dependent upon good judgement. As I played more, I learned more conventions, good and bad, which evolved my bidding to the point where less guesswork was involved. When I was introduced to the concept of weak jump-shifts by responder, it was clear that it should only be done by a hand that could not make a "normal" bid. It was also described as a hand that would occur more often than the strong jump-shift sort of hand.

That's an "American" style weak jump shift, < 6 HCP typically. It's not the only way to play WJS. More common in Europe from what I gather, is a more constructive style of WJS, roughly 5-8 HCP, which comes up more often. Ultra-weak hands are very rare, compared to stronger types, and often RHO has already bid on those. Having played the European style for a while I much prefer it. Then rebidding a major in many auctions can be invitational, and jump rebidding can be strong and replace the strong jump shift.

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So, what I am wondering, is has the standard changed? Is weak the new standard for jump-shifts?

I don't think there is a standard anymore. Depends who is teaching. Good players play weak, strong, invitational, reverse Flannery (which actually won the poll for most recent BWS), various multi-way jump shifts. I wouldn't make any assumptions with anyone. Strong players know to ask. Inexperienced players, depends who they learned from. Better teachers will have informed them that there are multiple ways to play and not to assume.

[johnu]

What's standard? Depends on the level of the players.

In Bridge World Standard 2017,

1) A jump in a lower ranking suit is invitational
2) A jump in a higher ranking suit is strong, (except a jump to 2♥/2♠ (5/4 in majors) after 1 of a minor opening)

BWS standard is based on a pooling of votes by a top expert panel, and the general BW readership who answered their poll questions, so I'm guessing mostly advanced to expert players.

Some of them probably preferred weak jump shifts, but they were in the minority (and I'm too lazy to look up the poll results).

[HardVector]

Stephen Tu, on 2019-May-07, 17:33, said:

That's an "American" style weak jump shift, < 6 HCP typically. It's not the only way to play WJS. More common in Europe from what I gather, is a more constructive style of WJS, roughly 5-8 HCP, which comes up more often. Ultra-weak hands are very rare, compared to stronger types, and often RHO has already bid on those. Having played the European style for a while I much prefer it. Then rebidding a major in many auctions can be invitational, and jump rebidding can be strong and replace the strong jump shift.

I think I like that, but that would involve some conversations with partner. For instance, in the auction, 1c-1s-1n-2s, you are saying that would show an invitational hand with 6+ spades, correct? That should be forcing one round. I would deem that to be inv/game hand, but not slammish. A slam hand would bid 3s. Is that considered the European standard? I'm just curious, because I keep running into people here who have differing ideas on what a "normal" bid is.

[ahydra]

HardVector, on 2019-May-07, 18:49, said:

I think I like that, but that would involve some conversations with partner. For instance, in the auction, 1c-1s-1n-2s, you are saying that would show an invitational hand with 6+ spades, correct? That should be forcing one round.

Over a notrump bid, the 2S can be only five spades. For example, recently my partner held something like AQJxx x xx xxxxx in that auction, which would much prefer to play 2S than 1NT. (Of course, some play that you can rebid 1NT on a singleton spade, in which case it probably is sensible to have six.) Opener is expected to pass 100% of the time.

The situation you are referring to would occur over a suit rebid by opener, e.g. 1C-1H; 1S-2H. This shows about 8-11 HCPs, six hearts. It is not forcing, but is constructive.

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A slam hand would bid 3s. Is that considered the European standard?

Over a notrump rebid, yes, assuming you are playing XYZ / Checkback / something of the sort. Say you play XYZ: over 1C-1S; 1NT, 2C -> 2S = INV with five spades (I think), 2D -> 2S = GF with 5+ spades, and a jump to 3S shows 6+ spades and slam interest, setting trumps and demanding cuebids.

Over a suit rebid, it shows 6+ spades, GF, not necessarily SI. For example, if you hold AKxxxx Axx xx Jx, and it goes 1D-1S; 2C-3S; 3NT, you are more than happy to pass.

ahydra

[HardVector]

No, I was referring to Stephen's jump shift showing 5-8. If the jump shift is 5-8, the bidding 1 followed by 2 should show something more, I would think. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the auction 1c-1s-1n-2s should be 100% forcing when you can just bid 1c-2s. This is assuming you are not playing some sort of convention like XYZ, I'm just talking about the basic idea. If the basic idea is contingent upon playing something like XYZ, then the idea is not "standard".

I'm just trying to understand how to deal with other peoples ideas.

[Stephen Tu]

HardVector, on 2019-May-07, 23:51, said:

No, I was referring to Stephen's jump shift showing 5-8. If the jump shift is 5-8, the bidding 1 followed by 2 should show something more, I would think. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the auction 1c-1s-1n-2s should be 100% forcing when you can just bid 1c-2s.

The M rebid after 1nt is NF because:

• presumably XY/2-way checkback available.
• very frequently want to rebid 2M on only 5 cds when unbalanced/semibalanced hand, will often play better than 1nt. 1nt rebids have 3 cd support for M quite a lot, and you can't get to 2M otherwise without just bidding it. Often 5-2 also plays better than 1nt.

Otherwise it's inv (and NF) on other opener's simple suit rebid auctions.

So rebidding 2M after 1nt is 5 cds exactly. If opener is ever allowed to rebid 1nt on stiff, I've played around with opener *required* to run to prevent a Burn's law violation, sometimes 2nt or 3m is reachable and plays much better than a known 5-1 "fit", though of course sometimes you are in trouble regardless.

[ahydra]

HardVector, on 2019-May-07, 23:51, said:

No, I was referring to Stephen's jump shift showing 5-8.

So was I .

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If the jump shift is 5-8, the bidding 1 followed by 2 should show something more, I would think.

And indeed it does, as I wrote above - when responder rebids his suit after opener has rebid a suit, it shows 8-11ish and at least six cards.

The reason it's different when opener rebids in NT is exactly as Stephen has described in his latest post. Imagine you held a 5cM and partner _opened_ 1NT: you'd transfer, right? This is pretty much the same thing, just with a different 1NT range.

ahydra