[kiwinacol]

I'd be grateful if you would bid the N/S hands for me. Standard bidding.



West. Dealer and opens 1D and rebids 2D if able, or raises hearts to 2 level if able. All None VUL.
East bids 1H if able.

NORTH.
S J 4 2
H J 9
D A J 3
C Q J 8 4 3

SOUTH.
S A T 7 6
H A K Q
D 7 5
C T 7 6 2

NS have unassuming cues in their armoury.

thank you.

[hrothgar]

I would expect the following auction

(1♦) - P - (1♥) - P
(2♥) - P - ???

I consider the North hand much too weak for a 2♣ overcall

Either of the following auctions seems possible

(1♦) - P - (1♥) - X
(2♥) - 3♣ - ???


(1♦) - P - (1♥) - P
(2♥) - X - ???

The former seems more reasonable to me

[eagles123]

no good player would overcall 2C imo, but in a random club duplicate I'm sure it would be the majority choice lol

[Cyberyeti]

I would double with the S hand and with a lebensohl style 2N available, bid 3♣ to show some sort of hand with the N hand and there we play

[fromageGB]

As I'm a random club duplicate player I do overcall on a non-classic hand. 5 cards with some values is biddable, and can be weaker with a better suit, but this hand is about minimum because of the poor values. I have found this helps us or disrupts them more often than it leads to a disaster. Partner's bidding assumes you have a 10 count.

(1♦) 2♣ (p) 2NT,
(p) p (p)

In advancer seat we play transfers from opener's suit up to 2 of overcaller's, so while with this hand we would prefer overcaller to play in 2NT, we can't get there.
It might even make on a diamond lead. Clubs may be a better contract, but this is matchpoints.

[gordontd]

 eagles123, on 2019-April-01, 03:57, said:

no good player would overcall 2C imo, but in a random club duplicate I'm sure it would be the majority choice lol

I seem to remember reading that Sabine Auken recommends bidding 2m over 1om as often as possible, because of the effect it has on the opponents' auctions. I couldn't find a reference to it though.

[Tramticket]

 eagles123, on 2019-April-01, 03:57, said:

in a random club duplicate I'm sure it would be the majority choice lol

Agreed. It may even be a better bid than you think in a random club duplicate. Most club players don't have the methods or attitudes to punish these bids, so players in your random club duplicate keep making the bid because they find it successful. When they come up against a better quality opponent, the strategy unravels. But by then, the habit is too ingrained. My advice to players who aspire to improving their game and play at higher levels is to learn to treat two-level over-calls with respect.

Pass with North. Take-out double with south if pairs.

[sfi]

 gordontd, on 2019-April-01, 04:34, said:

I seem to remember reading that Sabine Auken recommends bidding 2m over 1om as often as possible, because of the effect it has on the opponents' auctions.

I think it might be in her book, but it's too late for me to check at the moment. 1D-(2C) is definitely a hard auction to handle, but this hand is still way off the range for 2C. I would try 3C if I wanted to swing for some reason.

[paulg]

It is in Sabine's book, "I Love This Game", where she advocates trying to bid two clubs over one diamond as often as possible.

I think standard's have changed since when I learned the game. I was taught sound two-level overcalls and was appalled by the overcalls I saw at my local club. I'm still appalled by those, but there is a large contingent of success players who now overcall at the two-level with hands that I would never have considered when I was young.

I too overcall much more freely these days but I like to think that stronger players are making some subtle evaluations missed by the less experienced. I think a lot of this style comes from eastern Europeans, who have shown how difficult it is for even strong pairs to catch them in a penalty unless there is a considerable trump stack. And anything that takes space and gets them out of their non-competitive methods is a good thing.

It helps if you have solid agreements on how to move forward when you have a good hand opposite such an overcall and an appreciation, on both sides, on what is expected.

Of course none of this applies to the given North hand, which is a clear pass over one diamond

[DozyDom]

Auken says overcall 2m over 2om often. She doesn't say "overcall on the most absolute garbage possible".

[mikeh]

All good players have known, since well before Auken's book, that one should strain to bid 2C over 1D, since it creates problems that no other simple overcall scenario has.

The classic unbiddable hand for responder, after 1D (2C) is say 6-10 hcp and only one major.

Had overcaller passed, responder has an easy 1M response and all competent pairs will usually get the ensuing auction correct.

Throw in the 2C overcall, and now responder may have no plausible action at all, other than pass. Even if one plays that 1D promises some real length (in my partnership it shows 4+, since we open 1C on 4=4=3=2), and so one can raise with 3 or 4: what do you bid with, say, xxx KQxx Kxx xxx?

You have no good bid, because you can't stand a spade advance of your double, when partner is the one likely to be tapped. If one bids 2D, hearts are almost surely lost forever, and partner may misread the situation and later take a push too high. Btw, these situations are fraught with the possibility of UI: responder takes time to bid 2D and opener, looking at some 4=4=3=2, bids 2H

But there are limits. I remember many years ago an aggressive player, good at the club level, bragged about how he thought it very important to make light 2/1 overcalls to rob the opps of their bidding space. It was beautiful coincidence that he went for 1400 the very next board, into our 430.

At the club, against the average player, by all means get into the auction, especially if you and partner have no interest in ever being good players, able to compete reasonably against the players who are routinely the first seed in regional pair events.

Even against such players, the very light overcall is going to score some triumphs. I don't care how good one is: nobody bids as accurately, to their own contract, after a 2/1 overcall unless they have a good hand or a good fit for opener. However, the better the opponents, the more likely it is that they will do the right thing, and the problem is that by overcalling light you have offered them a chance for a top (or a swing) that would never have been there had you passed.

For the light overcall to be palatable, one wants a good suit, more than one wants a strong hand. Shape helps as well: 5332 hands should almost never overcall at the 2-level unless with a solid opening hand, and even then one should have reasonable texture in one's suit.

Bidding is fun. Passing is far more difficult. At the club level one almost never sees anyone pass holding a 12 count.

On the actual hand, I would pass in 2nd seat, and whether I made a double of 1H as south would depend on my mood, my partner, and my opponents. When one has a flat hand and most of one's hcp is in a suit they bid, with no prospect of allowing one to build a length trick, bidding could be horrific.

Compare the actual hand to, say, AQxx xxx xx AKxx. Same shape, same hcp, even the same number of Aces, Kings and Queens, yet this hand is far, far stronger than the OP hand.

I'd probably double most of the time. I would definitely double playing with my regular partner (who knows how to declare a hand) at mps. That would lead to us playing 3C unless they choose to compete to 3D, which seems against the odds.

[fromageGB]

 Tramticket, on 2019-April-01, 04:41, said:

It may even be a better bid than you think in a random club duplicate. Most club players don't have the methods or attitudes to punish these bids, so players in your random club duplicate keep making the bid because they find it successful.

With respect, I think you are missing the point. Or maybe I am missing your point. We are talking about matchpoints at the local club. If the players making these bids find it successful, as I do , why is it not a good bid?

[nekthen]

Well I guess i am a random club player

[Tramticket]

 fromageGB, on 2019-April-01, 16:10, said:

With respect, I think you are missing the point. Or maybe I am missing your point. We are talking about matchpoints at the local club. If the players making these bids find it successful, as I do , why is it not a good bid?

With respect, please read Mike's excellent post. Mike explains very well the considerations involved and why, on the OP hand, it is pushing things too far to over-call, 2 over 1, against good players. If you only want to chalk up master points at your local club, then carry on.

[nudnikbp]

North has a wretched hand for a 2C overcall. If he passes, then South could make a takeout double of one heart. After West's two diamond bid, North's choices are either 2NT or 3C.

[nohk]

Quote

Throw in the 2C overcall, and now responder may have no plausible action at all, other than pass. Even if one plays that 1D promises some real length (in my partnership it shows 4+, since we open 1C on 4=4=3=2), and so one can raise with 3 or 4: what do you bid with, say, xxx KQxx Kxx xxx?

I'm going to chip in here and say that making a negative X in an auction where partner has opened a minor and the opponents have overcalled the other minor should show 4+/3+ in the majors (either way). There're still 'death' hands, especially over a short C opening with a 4243 shape or similar - but there are fewer terrible hands. Having a heavier 1NT bid (where available) also lessens some of the pressure; and I'm not sure why you'd rush into declaring 1NT with 6 opposite 11 when the opps know what suit to lead at trick 1.

[stev1998]

Neither North or South want to be in this auction.
The best result would be to stay quiet an hope east west get out of their depth. The reason I say this is both North and South have values in the short suits and missing honours in their long suits despite the fit i clubs.
Imagine against 3 clubs by North east leads top of a doubleton spade. You let it go and loose to queen
now a diamond back and you can see what will happen.
North must loose 2 top trumps and will suffer a ruff or two en route He can try 3 rounds of hearts and pitch a spade but now is open to a trump promotion. So best way to get a plus is stay quiet I think

[fromageGB]

 Tramticket, on 2019-April-02, 16:12, said:

With respect, please read Mike's excellent post. Mike explains very well the considerations involved and why, on the OP hand, it is pushing things too far to over-call, 2 over 1, against good players. If you only want to chalk up master points at your local club, then carry on.

It is an excellent post, but
"especially if you and partner have no interest in ever being good players, able to compete reasonably against the players who are routinely the first seed in regional pair events"
is just nonsense. Are you not capable of bidding differently depending on method of scoring, or type of event, or opposition? If you are a robot then sure, rigidity rules, but humans have flexibility. I do have different systems options and styles.

[helene_t]

I would pass with the North hand but it's close.

If North overcalls, I think we will end up in 3NT. On a good day it makes, if West has a singleton ♣A or ♣K, which is not unlikely on the bidding.

If North passes, South will double 1♥. North will bid 3♣ which probably should be Lebensohl but even then, South doesn't have enoung to accept the invite.

So 3♣ it is.

[ahydra]

 helene_t, on 2019-April-03, 18:01, said:

I would pass with the North hand but it's close.

If North overcalls, I think we will end up in 3NT. On a good day it makes, if West has a singleton ♣A or ♣K, which is not unlikely on the bidding.

If North passes, South will double 1♥. North will bid 3♣ which probably should be Lebensohl but even then, South doesn't have enoung to accept the invite.

So 3♣ it is.

This would be my auction too. I wouldn't consider overcalling 2C on that pile of rubbish North has, but after South doubles 1H and West raises to 2H, North has more than enough to put in a 3C bid, and South will pass with his minimum TOX.

ahydra