[thepossum]

Hi all

I havent played that many Moysian fits, although playing with GiB the frequncy has increased in my bridge (due to its aversion to minors) and I'm having to learn how to approach those hands differently. In the past I would have expected to be more likely in no trumps

I recently played one, 4H, in an IMP tourney. Theortetically in double dummy analysis it did make. However almost nobody made either the 4H or the more common;y bid 3NT game and it scored a small positive IMP score

I imagine the probabilities are fairly low for success - all else (eg HCPs) being equal - against 4-4 or 5-3 fits. Does anyone know the chances, and does the 3NT usually do better. In the hand I just played 3NT fared no better

regards P

[Stephen Tu]

Barring GIB stupidities (which are frequent), playing Moysians typically only arise in situations such as:- you respond 1M to 1m, partner raises on 3 (because of say 3154 type shape, or maybe small doubleton), you play 2M.
- you have game values, but in auction find a suit is unstopped, but have a 4-3 fit in the M and the suit is strong- partner made a takeout double, you had to pick a suit, and you land in a 4-3- you chose to make a 4 cd 1M overcall, because the suit was strong, the hand was wrong shape for takeout double, but you felt getting into the auction right away is better than passing. Then partner raised.

Definitely one always prefers 3nt to Moysians if you have all the suits stopped. But sometimes you can diagnose that a suit is unstopped and you pick the Moysian as a last resort. Sometimes you can visualize that 4M in the 4-3 plays better than 5m.

As for how to play Moysians:

• assume opp's trump split 4-2. Try to play to cater to that. Only play for 3-3 if that's the only way to make at IMPs, or at MP if you think you have to make for a good score (because people will reach better contracts and you think it's a mistake to have landed in the Moysian), and can only make if trumps 3-3.
• try not to get forced in the 4cd hand, take ruffs in the 3 cd hand if possible. Discard losers instead of getting forced in the long hand. Sometimes discard WINNERS instead of getting forced in the long hand, to avoid losing control of hand (opps with longer trumps than yours), if later tricks can then be ruffed in the short hand instead, and you can afford that loser and still make.
• set up side suits before drawing trumps (one cannot usually afford to draw trumps first, because with the opps suit 4-2 you'd be out of trumps. Unless you want to effectively play notrumps. In which case you probably made a mistake by not being in NT)
• some hands you just crossruff and scramble as many tricks as possible and hope you have enough.

[etha]

go here for all analysis. First stop whenever you want to know anything. http://rpbridge.net/

[hrothgar]

While I agree with Stephen's analysis, it feels very much focused on game level contracts. To me, at least, the more interesting situation is playing 4-3 fits at the two level.

For better or worse, a lot of bridge players have internalized some version of the Law of Total Tricks, which to them, often seems to mean "The opponents can never play a 2M contract". This can lead to some problems when they are confronted with bidding systems that will aggressively open 4 card majors and the raise to 2M systemically shows 3 card trump support. (A lot of our best scores occur when the opponents make ill advised decisions to compete to the three level or balance with a double at the two level).

Associated with this, if you play this style, you get all sorts of practice declaring 4-3 fits. FWIW, one very important skill to develop is trying to figure out which strategy you plan to use to go positive. You'll typically finding yourself angling for one of the following.

• Wins tricks based on power (draw trump and play NT)
  
• Short hand ruffs
  
• Set up a long side suit
  
• Cross ruff

If you can confuse the opponents as to what your plan is, all the better

[Cyberyeti]

The other situation they commonly come up is where you have a 3451 hand opposite a weak no trump with no game ambitions and you just stayman and play wherever partner puts you, often in the 4-3 fit.

[thepossum]

Hi everyone

Thanks for the comments. Here were the hands and the auction. They were rather strange NS hands and people ended up in a strange mix of contracts. Most were in 3NT (generally -1 or more), some in 4H (down 1 although in theory it can make DD), some in a disastrous 4S etc. 4 clubs would have been reasonable contract but maybe GiB was hoping for game, and as I said it does make DD. I think bidding 2S with 5 small is rather questionnable. GiB certainly doesnt like minors

I was definitely relieved to get out with 4-1 and a small positive. trump break was good, diamond break was good (from auction) club King and diamond Q finesse worked and chance of a few cross ruffs etc. I wasnt sure on strategy but mainly tackled the side suits first. Small diamond was led. Maybe a trump would cause more problems, although DD suggests spade attack by defence is best. Any tips on strategy. I finessed the diamond Queen, cashed Ace, finessed the club King, cashed Ace, delayed drawing trumps and went on from there and somehow did ok with a few long clubs.

Note I also ended up in a 5H (slam try) Moysian last night which I made on pure hand strength. How we managed to get into a slam try with only 7???

P

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[Cyberyeti]

I would X 2♣ rather than bidding 2♥ which to me shows a bigger hand, unless this shows spade support.

4♥ can be made on most defence but demands a lot of good guessing

[rmnka447]

Stephen indicated that playing in a Moysian fit, you should try not to get forced in the 4 card suit hand.

That isn't just a nice to have, it's a key component of most successful Moysian fits. The person with the 3 card support needs to consider whether that kind of defensive force is likely to occur. If that person is looking at length in the opponent's suit without any controls, then it's prudent to think twice about playing in the Moysian fit. OTOH, if the short trump hand also has shortness in that suit, so any ruffs necessary can be taken in that hand, or, has controls in that suit, then playing in the Moysian fit may work out fine.

[apollo1201]

thepossum, on 2019-March-22, 15:32, said:

Thanks for the comments. Here were the hands and the auction. They were rather strange NS hands and people ended up in a strange mix of contracts. Most were in 3NT (generally -1 or more), some in 4H (down 1 although in theory it can make DD), some in a disastrous 4S etc. 4 clubs would have been reasonable contract but maybe GiB was hoping for game, and as I said it does make DD. I think bidding 2S with 5 small is rather questionnable. GiB certainly doesnt like minors

---

How come so many pairs end up in so high level with a misfitting combined 21 count?

Even when partner shows some not too minimal values by making a free 1S call (which is normal btw, you are not passing a 7-count with 5 cards in the boss suit), 2H is clearly an overbid (especially since you could X the cue bid to confirm a real and good suit), and you probably couldn’t stop North GIB from then (and in that case, 2S was probably a reasonable choice as you could be 3415, but 2NT is probably a better call).

A more normal auction would likely end up in 3C (or 3D if E likes his hand, although he shouldn’t, with a wasted CK and xxx fit for partner’s D).

The fact that a contract makes DD (with 3 finesses working, a 33 break plus some guessing or very good table presence) doesn’t mean you should be in it.

[wuudturner]

The probability is not that low for a Moysian to make, IF it was well bid. One frequent clue to look for a Moysian is when you hope to be able to ruff a short side suit in the hand with 3 cards.

The play in a Moysian is subtly different from play in a suit where you have lots of trumps. You need to be more careful about how and exactly when you draw trumps. Do you need to ruff in the short hand first? Do you need to duck a round of trumps early? Is there a side suit you need to set up along the way, while you still have trumps in both hands to act as a stopper against a suit they may have? Can you play the hand as a crossruff, possibly not drawing any trumps at all? So if you can take three outside winners, then 7 quick ruffs, you have your major suit game.

On this hand, you encouraged GIB by reversing into 2♡. You simply do not have a good enough hand to bid 2♡. A singleton in partner's suit is a bad thing. You can blame GB for rebidding spades there on a ratty suit, but the root of the problem was in your own bidding, by showing a hand with perhaps an ace more than you had. Don't get me wrong. The South hand has playing strength, but not so much unless you can find a fit. And with partner showing spade length and hopefully values there, your hand goes down in value a bit.

Next, consider if North has a good hand? You have a 13 count. West has overcalled, but only at the 1-level. So lets give West 8+ HCP. East cue-bid raised, but East is a passed hand. So lets guess that East has a maximum pass, so around 10-11 points. That gives North around 8 points. You need to do this in the bidding all of the time. What does partner have? Should I be looking for game or a part score? Should I be willing to get out of the bidding on a misfit?

In the bidding, if partner had a moderately weak hand with both hearts AND spades, what might it have done over 1♢? North-bot might have chosen to make a negative double. So the very fact that North bid 1♠ decreases the chance that North also has hearts, because if North had both spades and hearts, it would often have doubled. Even a weakish hand with 5♠ and 4♡ might still double there instead of bidding 1♠. A good hand with 5♠ and 4♡ will bid 1♠, because they know they will have another chance in the bidding to rebid hearts, thus showing their shape. But you absolutely know that North does not hold a good hand.

The trick with GIB is to look carefully at what it will expect to see in your hand. Look at every bid you make, before you make the bid. You can check to see how many points it will expect you to have. If you have told it you have an 18 count, and it has 7 or so, then expect it to get the partnership into some thin game, even if you really have only 13 points and a poorly fitting hand.

I know your goal is to improve, and have had frequent problems with GIB. But playing with GIB as a partner is actually not that difficult, as long as you are very careful not to overstate your hand. So look very carefully at what GIB will expect you to hold for the hand you have bid. At the same time, I have several friends who do not practice this, and then frequently complain about what bad places GIB got them to in the bidding. In fact, it was usually their fault.

[thepossum]

Dear all
This thread was intended to be a discussion about how to play Moysian fits as a resource for other people playing them. Those earlier in the thread took it that way and provided useful general advice on how to approach them. I posted a hand as an example. I simply post example hands I have played, mostly with GiB. That was not an invitation for certain people to think that 1) I needed their personal advice/criticism on that hand; 2) that this thread or any of my threads are asking for personal help 3) that it is invitation to attack GiB's play etc. All my threads are intended to provide starting points for discussion about concepts in Bridge. I do not need to improve my bridge any more. I'm actually very happy with my level of bidding and play as my results show if any of you ever cared to look. So please in future follow the example of those earlier in the thread and treat threads as discussion points in concepts and situations in bridge and not as an excuse for some gratuitious advice/criticism or the need to try to put down the play of any individual player. If you choose to criticise me for this hand then please go and criticise the other 20 or so players who ended up in 3NT (-1 or -2). Or with the 5S Moysian hand I had to play in a recent ACBL IMP tourney (through no fault of my bidding) maybe go and criticise all those good/advanced/expert players who ended up having to play a Moysian 6S-1 (through no fault of their own or their bidding). The thread was about how to play them once you are in them. We all have to deal with problematic contracts when partner bids with only 3 trumps and you think they have 4.

Thanks to those who provided useful information and discussion on Moysian fits. I would appreciate any and all future discussion on any of the threads I post to be given in a totally non personal way. It is not about me or my play. The threads aree about bridge and issues in bridge that maybe some beginner/novice readers of these forums could learn from.

regards P

[Stephen Tu]

Possum, it's going to be extremely hard for you to improve and learn as a bridge player if you don't grow a thicker skin. You are asking everyone to walk on eggshells around you when they are just trying to offer helpful advice on hands where you have arguably gone wrong.

People are trying to help you become a better player. Don't take constructive criticism of your actions as personal attacks or attempts to call you stupid or something like that. Bridge is a game of mistakes, all players have made thousands, hundreds of thousands of them as they improved. Those that get better accept people pointing them out, because it's not always possible to see all mistakes on one's own. It takes a ton of knowledge to recognize all the mistakes one is making. You should *welcome* the criticism, not attack it. If you can't handle any of your mistakes being pointed out, stop posting here IMO.

[Winstonm]

The biggest issue of a 4/3 trump fit, the so-called Moysian fit, named after the Bridge World editor Sonny Moyse, is control of the trump suit. Taking a "tap" in the long trump hand is almost always fatal. The bidding should take into account which hand has the short suit that may be attacked by the defense. It the short suit is with the 3-card support, a Moysian may play well.

Timing is also critical. As an example, suppose in a 4S contract in a 4-3 fit the opponents take the first club trick and play another club which dummy (the 3-card spade hand) has to rough. Now, let us also assume that you hold AKQx of trumps and dummy started with 235.

Even with the AKQx, it is right to play a small spade from both hands. This allows dummy to retain a trump to prevent a club force to declarer's 4-card suit while catering to the most likely 4-2 trump break.

I hope this isn't too basic. Unless you have played in the old days of 4-card majors, 4-3 fits can be intimidating.