[etha]

assuming you want to bid 2♦ weak 2M only multi as often as possible what is the most aggressive and wide ranging you think you can play?
2 ♥ and 2♠ openers are not available as good weak 2M, most 11HCP hands are opening bids at 1 level.


For example 0-10 any 5 card suit at favorable 1st and 3rd.
7-10 1+ top honors 6 card suit at unfavorable 2nd.


Is about what I am expecting.

How do you play 2nt over this? Do you need to ask how many cards in the suit or do you assume the worst according to the vul? Do you have a bid for a really bad hand at favorable e.g. 3♣?


Anyone with answers please post them.

[Cyberyeti]

As a scheme, I'd be inclined to use the old one we used to use over a weak/strong multi years ago

Divide your weak 2 into 4, 1 weakest, 4 strongest.(Same scheme with diamonds tied to spades)

2♦-2N

3♣(hearts, 1,2 or 4)
3♥(hearts, 3)

Over 3♣, opener can sign off in 3♥ over which you bid again with 4
or he can bid 3♦ over which you bid 3♥ with 1, 3N/4♥ with 2 and something else with 4.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-March-26, 08:33, said:

Divide your weak 2 into 4, 1 weakest, 4 strongest.(Same scheme with diamonds tied to spades)

Dividing the range into 4?! The Mark Horton book only divided the range into three, so full marks for finding a way to divide into 4!

etha, on 2019-March-26, 08:22, said:

what is the most aggressive and wide ranging you think you can play?
2 ♥ and 2♠ openers are not available as good weak 2M, most 11HCP hands are opening bids at 1 level.


For example 0-10 any 5 card suit at favorable 1st and 3rd.
7-10 1+ top honors 6 card suit at unfavorable 2nd.

A wide range might be very effective in an uncontested auction. Unfortunately, real-world opponents do not sit still and wait patiently for you to describe your hand. Say partner opens 2♦ in first seat showing 0-10 and five or six in a major and your RHO over-calls 3♦ before you get a chance to roll out Cyberyeti's toy. It is difficult to compete effectively opposite such a wide range.

We break discipline in third seat only. Now we might have fewer points, more points (up to about 12), or a slightly non-standard distribution.

[Cyberyeti]

If they overcall 3m which is actually pretty rare, you are usually on to a good board as you've made them guess at an uncomfortably high level on what is often only a moderate hand.

We don't play a multi, but play garbage weak 2s (0-10 4+ cards) and the effect is pretty similar, we've had more 4 figure scores in the plus column than minus from this.

[etha]

I played 4 garbage weak2's at MP's for a few sessions and was amazed how much people suicided against it.

[Cyberyeti]

etha, on 2019-March-26, 10:06, said:

I played 4 garbage weak2's at MP's for a few sessions and was amazed how much people suicided against it.

Yup, my favourite, first time we opened one Jxxx, xxx, xx, Jxxx 2♠-(3♦)-X partner had a 22 count with ♦AQ10x, the overcall was far from ridiculous KJ9xxx and a 13-14 count, 4 figure penalty on a part score board.

[helene_t]

What about:
3♣: minimum with 4 clubs and 5 hearts
3♦: minimum with 4 diamonds and 5 hearts
3♥: minimum with six hearts
3♠: maximum with five hearts
3NT: five spades
higher: any hand with six spades, or a maximum with six hearts

With that scheme, opener obviously has to have a spades fit and/or a GF hand in order to use 2NT, and also must not want to play 3NT opposite a 6-card suit. So we need other responses to cover the rest of the hands which responder can have:
3♣: P/C opposite a minimum with five spades and four of a minor
3♦: GF, wants to play 3NT opposite spades
3NT: to play opposite hearts

You could also use the 3♠ response for something, it is not really required as a p/c barrage.

[nullve]

helene_t, on 2019-March-26, 19:00, said:

What about:
3♣: minimum with 4 clubs and 5 hearts
3♦: minimum with 4 diamonds and 5 hearts
3♥: minimum with six hearts
3♠: maximum with five hearts
3NT: five spades
higher: any hand with six spades, or a maximum with six hearts

With that scheme, opener obviously has to have a spades fit and/or a GF hand in order to use 2NT, and also must not want to play 3NT opposite a 6-card suit. So we need other responses to cover the rest of the hands which responder can have:
3♣: P/C opposite a minimum with five spades and four of a minor
3♦: GF, wants to play 3NT opposite spades
3NT: to play opposite hearts

You could also use the 3♠ response for something, it is not really required as a p/c barrage.

This is very similar to what I play in response to my Multi 2♣ opening (showing either a weak hand ("0-9" in 1st seat) with either 6(+)M3-OM or 5M3-OM4+m OR "22+" with primarily hearts and an unbalanced hand (GF)):

2♣-?:

If

MAX = "7-9"
non-MAX = "0-6" (which Responder treats as "4-6").

then

P: allowed
2♦ = catchall (but usually "potential misfit, 3S(3)4+H or GF)
2♥ = P/C w/ either 2+S2H or 3+S3H OR INV, 2-S5+H
...P = weak w/ 5-6 H (very unlikely that Responder has the INV hand with 2-S5+H)
...2♠ = weak w/ 5-6 S
2♠ = P/C w/ 2S3+H OR INV, 5+S2-H
...P = weak w/ 5-6 S (very unlikely that Responder has the INV hand with 5+S2-H)
...2N+ = 5+ H, either weak or GF. With INV values Responder will assume that Opener is weak, though.
...And if GF options are ignored:
...2N = non-MAX, 5-6 H
......3♣ = INV, P/C
.........P = 2-S4+C
.........3♦ = 2-S4+ D
.........3♥ = 2-S6H
.........3♠ = 3 S
......(...)
...3♣ = MAX, 5H4+C
...3♦ = MAX, 5H4+D
...3♥ = MAX, 6 H
2N = INV, 2S2-4H
...3♣ = non-MAX, 5S4+C
...3♦ = non-MAX, 5S4+D
...3♥ = non-MAX, 5-6 H, insufficient playing strength for 4♥ if 6 H
...3♠ = non-MAX, 6 S
...3N = MAX, 5 S
...4M-2 = MAX, 6 M
...4♥ = non-MAX, 6 H, extra playing strength
3♣ = INV, 3-4S2H(3)4+C
...P = non-MAX, 5H4+C
...3♦ = non-MAX, 5H4+D
...3♥ = non-MAX, 6 H
...3♠ = non-MAX, 5-6 S, insufficient playing strength for 4♠ if 6 S
...3N = MAX, 5 H
...4M-2 = MAX, 6 M
...4♠ = non-MAX, 6 S, extra playing strength
(...)

I suppose one could play something very similar over an identically defined Multi 2♦ opening. For example:

2♦-?:

P: allowed
2♥ = P/C OR INV+, 2-S5+H OR (maybe) INV, 1-S4-H
...P = weak w/ 5-6 H (very unlikely that Responder has the INV hand with 2-S5+H)
...2♠ = weak w/ 5-6 S
2♠ = P/C OR INV+, 5+S2-H OR (maybe) INV, 4-S1-H
...P = weak w/ 5-6 S (very unlikely that Responder has the INV hand with 5+S2-H)
...2N+ = 5+ H, either weak or GF. With INV values Responder will assume that Opener is weak, though.
...And if GF options are ignored:
...2N = non-MAX, 5-6 H
......3♣ = INV, P/C
.........P = 2-S4+C
.........3♦ = 2-S4+ D
.........3♥ = 2-S6H
.........3♠ = 3 S
......(...)
...3♣ = MAX, 5H4+C
...3♦ = MAX, 5H4+D
...3♥ = MAX, 6 H
2N = INV+, either 2S2-4H or 3+S3+H OR GF, 3-4S2H
...3♣ = non-MAX, 5S4+C
...3♦ = non-MAX, 5S4+D
...3♥ = non-MAX, 5-6 H, insufficient playing strength for 4♥ if 6 H
...3♠ = non-MAX, 6 S
...3N = MAX, 5 S
...4M-2 = MAX, 6 M
...4♥ = non-MAX, 6 H, extra playing strength
3♣ = INV, 3-4S2H(3)4+C
...P = non-MAX, 5H4+C
...3♦ = non-MAX, 5H4+D
...3♥ = non-MAX, 6 H
...3♠ = non-MAX, 5-6 S, insufficient playing strength for 4♠ if 6 S
...3N = MAX, 5 H
...4M-2 = MAX, 6 M
...4♠ = non-MAX, 6 S, extra playing strength
3♦ = GF, 4-M1-OM
...E.g. the simple
...3M = 5+ OM
(...)

[Kungsgeten]

If you want a super-wide style, and feel that you need to find out as much info as possible at the three-level, then I'd probably use 2♠ as the primary artificial forcing bid.
You then lose the preemptive aspect of bidding 2♠ as pass/correct, but gain a valuable step. The main problem though is probably that the 3-level might be too high, so initial action will be a guess.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-March-26, 09:44, said:

If they overcall 3m which is actually pretty rare, you are usually on to a good board as you've made them guess at an uncomfortably high level on what is often only a moderate hand.

I thought of this thread last night when, after opps have guessed at an "uncomfortably high level" and we were left with the last guess:

---

MP Pairs.

How should we play partner's 3♥ bid? (a) Natural forcing; (b) Natural non-forcing; © Pass or Correct Competitive; (d) Pass or Correct Invitational?

I think that options (a) and (b) are less useful, so for us the bid is Pass or Correct - but what values are being shown? I took the bid as Competitive, but I was uneasy since my hand was super-maximum. One possibility is to use double here to show the Competitive strength hand (we currently play it as a penalty double - which has been useful occasionally). This problem becomes worse if the range of the multi is greater!

I am interested in how others play Double / 3♥ in this sequence?

[hrothgar]

If your goal is really to open 2!D as often as you can, then you probably want to switch from multi to an assumed fit method.

I personally am fond of the Frelling 2♦ which shows a preemptive hand with 4+ Diamonds and either (4+ Hearts or 4+ Spades)

[etha]

hrothgar, on 2019-April-02, 02:44, said:

If your goal is really to open 2!D as often as you can, then you probably want to switch from multi to an assumed fit method.

I personally am fond of the Frelling 2♦ which shows a preemptive hand with 4+ Diamonds and either (4+ Hearts or 4+ Spades)

yes played those for a bit.

[etha]

Tramticket, on 2019-April-02, 01:33, said:

I thought of this thread last night when, after opps have guessed at an "uncomfortably high level" and we were left with the last guess:

---

MP Pairs.

How should we play partner's 3♥ bid? (a) Natural forcing; (b) Natural non-forcing; © Pass or Correct Competitive; (d) Pass or Correct Invitational?

I think that options (a) and (b) are less useful, so for us the bid is Pass or Correct - but what values are being shown? I took the bid as Competitive, but I was uneasy since my hand was super-maximum. One possibility is to use double here to show the Competitive strength hand (we currently play it as a penalty double - which has been useful occasionally). This problem becomes worse if the range of the multi is greater!

I am interested in how others play Double / 3♥ in this sequence?

I think penalties and pass or correct is fine you can't do everything.

[nullve]

etha, on 2019-April-02, 04:27, said:

I think penalties and pass or correct is fine you can't do everything.

I believe it's better to pretend RHO has opened 3♦ in 2nd seat, so that

2♦-(3♦)-?:

P = a) weak hand b) good hand, wrong shape for X/3M/4♣+, not strong enough for 3N
...X = takeout (with MAX and suitable shape)
......P = penalties
..(...)
X = takeout
3♥ = NAT "overcall"
(...).