[Polixenes]

Considering hands with shape 3145 or 1345 or 2245, and particularly with no high honours in the majors, making a 1NT rebid less desirable.

Some authors, e.g. Andrew Gumperz http://youth.worldbr...andrew-gumperz/ recommend opening 1C

Other authors, e.g. Larry Cohen https://www.larryco....enter/detail/18 recommend opening 1D

My partner and I disagree on the better approach so I have been thinking of simply caving in and playing it his way. I play it the way I do simply because Mr. Cohen says so, but when I went online to find articles to show partner my way is how the experts play, it seems there is not universal agreement.

I'm curious if anyone here has strong opinions one way or the other based on practical experience or statistical review as to which approach is likely to be better in the long run.

[thepossum]

Hi

I'm no expert and will wait for more expert players to comment. I think personally I would base the decision on the strength of my hand. Enough for a reverse I would bid C and reverse into diamonds, otherwise bid diamonds first. However as you say there does not seem to be universal agreement on which minors to bid first with 44 or 45 (or even 33 sometimes). Some people always bid the 4 diamonds, some always bid the longer etc. Were you thinking about strong NT hands or different point counts

I believe either would be quite legitimate under most systems (except big club systems of course ), since 1D usually indicates 4 D and 1C can have any number from 3 upwards and doesnt necessarily deny 4D (it usually does). ALthough in Acol I think 1C would be preferred

In fact, thinking about my comment on strength of hand I think the decision should be based on what your second bid would be

I would also be interested in advanced/expert player comments

P

[steve2005]

I agree with Gumperz. The discussion is for minimum hands. Strong 16+ hands can reverse,

all 2-2-4-5 or 2-2-5-4 tend to treat as balanced. At least by opening NT or rebidding NT you have chance of being in the right strain.

opening 1♣ gives possibility of raising on 3-cards with a singleton.

Worst case you rebid 2♣ on a 5-card suit and partner will assuming you have 6 unless they have read the applicable article.

Also, there is some chance you will miss a diamond fit but that isn't high on the priorities.

[Stephen Tu]

http://www.districts...%202006-02.aspx

[dsLawsd]

I had this conversation with Edgar Kaplan who opened (RIP) 1♣ in most cases. Naturally they used K/S system.
2/1 western style opens 1♦ unless reverse. And puts 4-4-3-2 om the convention card.

But often it might depend on the heart suit.

I currently think opening 1♣ when holding 3 hearts gives better results.
Most important is to have a firm partnership agreement.

great question and discussion.

[mcphee]

I'm of the school that opens 1C. The idea of opening a 4 bagger to re-bid my 5 carder does not seem at all logical if you are 5-4-2-2. Holding a minimum hand responder will return to D when 2-2 minors and even 2-3 and I fail to see the upside of that. When 5-4-3-1 you raise the major or re-bid NT. I also do not like to open marginal minor suited hands.

[rmnka447]

 dsLawsd, on 2019-March-18, 23:55, said:

I had this conversation with Edgar Kaplan who opened (RIP) 1♣ in most cases. Naturally they used K/S system.
2/1 western style opens 1♦ unless reverse. And puts 4-4-3-2 om the convention card.

But often it might depend on the heart suit.

I currently think opening 1♣ when holding 3 hearts gives better results.
Most important is to have a firm partnership agreement.

great question and discussion.

K-S updated attaches a special meaning to an opening bid of 1 ♦ followed by a 2 ♣ rebid. It shows a hand with reversing values. (1 ♦ followed by a 3 ♣ rebid shows a weak minor opener presumably 5-5.) And generally in K-S, a simple rebid of the opening minor shows the minimum unbalanced minor openers included in K-S minor openers. This may seem a bit strange to some, but opener defining a minimum as soon as possible makes it easier for responder to figure out the possible ball park for the rest of the bidding.

[nudnikbp]

One club. Partner won't be able to bid accurately if you open 1D and rebid 2C.

[hrothgar]

I don't think that you are going to find consensus on this one.
FWIW, I think that it depends a lot on your planned rebid.

I personally am willing to open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ on certain hands, however, I strive not to.

Before doing so, I tend to ask myself the following questions:

• Is opening 1NT a smaller lie?
  
• Are my clubs good enough that I am willing to rebid my 5 bagger and suppress the Diamond holding?
  
• Am I willing to rebid a 3 card spade fragment?
  
• Can I stomach a 1NT rebid

If the answer to all of these is no, then I open 1♦

[miamijd]

This is an area where expert opinion has evolved over time. 50 years ago, everyone opened 1D with these hands and rebid 2C. That was mainly because there was an aversion to rebidding 1NT with a stiff in partner's suit or a low doubleton in the unbid major. But over the years, people found that these weren't the obstacles they appeared, so that opening 1C produced far better results, at least on the 12-14 hands. The 15-16 hands are much thornier.

For the 12-14 hands, it's pretty simple:

1. 2245: This one opens 1C and rebids 1NT over 1M, even with a low doubleton in the unbid major. Hey, if the opponents had that many cards in the unbid major, why aren't they bidding it? And if your partner is strong so that you have a game, it's probably 3NT, so why tell the opponents what to lead?

2. 3145: This one opens 1C and rebids (A) generally 1NT over 1H and (B) generally 2S over 1S. Yes, I know neither of these rebids are perfect. But with a minimum, partner generally should pass 1NT rather than bid 2H with 5 of them unless he has a really good 5-bagger. If partner has an invite or better, you can figure things out pretty easily.

3. 1345: This is the mirror image of 2. You bid 1NT over 1S and give the dreaded three-card raise over 1H.

Note that these are pretty much the only hands where you ever have to give a three-card major raise, and I find that more than half the time, the opponents interfere either over opener's or responder's bid, so that negative and support doubles come into play and do the job nicely.

The bigger problem on 45 hands comes when you have 15-16 high. Now you don't want to rebid 1NT, which is 12-14, but you aren't strong enough to reverse (which ought to show 17+). What to do?

1. 2245: This one isn't hard. You just bite the bullet and open 1NT.

2. 3145: Not as easy. Let's say you have

Axx x KJxx AKxxx

If you open 1C, you are too good to rebid 1NT over 1H, and to my way of thinking, also too good to raise 1S to 2S. Nothing is perfect here; you have to decide what distortion you are willing to live with. If you elect to open 1C, then you might actually want to consider bidding 1S over 1H. I know it looks radical, but it's actually pretty safe.

3. 1345: Might be the toughest of any of them:

x Axx KJxx AKxxx

Good luck, Mr. Phelps. You're going to need it.

Cheers,
Mike

[DCal]

I am sure there are more scientific ways to approach this, but I will usually open one diamond. This could be because, as another commenter has pointed out, I started playing fifty years ago. It has normally worked for me. If I have a hand with some intermediates and an honor in one of the majors, I will rebid 1NT with 2=2=4=5. With an unbalanced hand, I will rebid 2C, unless I have three cards in partner's major. My short major provides playing bonuses even if partner only has four cards in the major.
I must admit that this sometimes results in playing a Moysian fit in diamonds or a major--or even a 4-2 fit in diamonds--but two-level minor suit contracts lacking appropriate game-going strength in the combined hands, are usually good contracts if allowed to play at the two-level in the minor suit.
I have had results which were disasters over the last half-century, of course, but I have had similar results in more scientifically-bid contracts.
The major solution to this issue is a thorough discussion with partner. While there may be a "best practices," approach, it is usually good if you and your partner are on the same page.

[nekthen]

People wonder why I play acol. This is the reason. Just open 1♣. Simples.

[Stefan_O]

 steve2005, on 2019-March-18, 22:22, said:

Worst case you rebid 2♣ on a 5-card suit and partner will assuming you have 6 ...

Nope.
Std meaning of rebidding your opening-suit is either a 6card suit or a 4-5 hand where you lack reverse-values for showing your higher suit.

I don't see how opening the 4-card suit gains advantages to outweigh its drawbacks in a standard system context.

On the other hand, in a strong-1♣ system, we open 1D and rebid 2C with both 4-5/5-4 in minors as well as 4144/1444 with singleton in responder's major,
so that method works, too.

[miamijd]

 Stefan_O, on 2019-March-20, 14:52, said:

Nope.
Std meaning of rebidding your opening-suit is either a 6card suit or a 4-5 hand where you lack reverse-values for showing your higher suit.

I don't see how opening the 4-card suit gains advantages to outweigh its drawbacks in a standard system context.

On the other hand, in a strong-1♣ system, we open 1D and rebid 2C with both 4-5/5-4 in minors as well as 4144/1444 with singleton in responder's major,
so that method works, too.

Well, actually yes, not nope.

In Std American, when you open 1C and rebid 2C, you will almost always have 6+, and partner should play you for 6. Yes, there are two hand types where you will have five, but (A) they aren't that common and (B) if you have one of them, the opponents generally get into the auction, which helps you out and enables you to avoid rebidding the five-bagger.

Type One: x xxx Axxx AKJxx OR xxx x Axxx AKJxxs

I would open 1C and rebid 2C over a 1H or 1S response. Generally, with this hand type, you bid 1NT if partner bids your singleton and raise to 2M if partner bids your fragment. But I don't want to bid 1NT here being totally blank in the majors and only having one diamond stop, and making a three-card raise with xxx is generally awful, so the least harmful lie is probably a 2C rebid.

Type Two:

x KJx Axxx AKxxx

This is a really tough hand. You aren't good enough to reverse, and you can't open 1NT with a small stiff (even if it were allowed, you shouldn't do this with a major singleton).

If you open 1C (I would), then if partner bids 1S, you are sort of stuck. 1NT shows 12-14, and you are better than that. Since 2C has an upper limit of 15, I would try that.

In a way, you're also sort of stuck if partner bids 1H. 2H is a little wimpy, but 3H is a gross mischaracterization with only 3-card support. You have to choose between 2C and 2H; both have serious flaws.

Cheers,
Mike

[fromageGB]

If you and partner can agree that rebidding 1NT might have a shortage in responder's suit, then the problem is considerably lessened. If you can also agree that it is acceptable to support a major with 3 cards, when you have an unknown shortage in which to get immediate ruffs, then the problem goes away.

Nothing is 100% ideal, but these two points make life easy. Rebidding a minor shows 6 cards, which is a useful result, and responder feels no obligation to rebid a 5 card major.