[Tramticket]

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Teams of Four Match

Opponents bids are:
2♥ Weak (5-9). Either a six-card suit or a five-card suit with a four-card side suit.
2NT Artificial inquiry. Described as strong.
3♥ Six-card suit, upper range.

Who should double?

[ahydra]

Can West not double 3H? It must be penalty, given he didn't double 2H.

ahydra

[Tramticket]

ahydra, on 2019-February-21, 02:31, said:

Can West not double 3H? It must be penalty, given he didn't double 2H.

Yes, definitely penalty.

But is it the right bid? It seems likely that there will be further bidding given that north has made a "strong" inquiry and south has shown upper range. It also looks likely, from west's pooint of view, that N/S might have a better strain available and a double might help them find it.

[HardVector]

I think east should make a takeout double after 2n. When I hold hands like that, I tend to smell a rat. There are a lot of people who psyche strong bids to discourage competition in this manner. It happens when someone wants to make a 5 level sac, so they bid blackwood to disguise it, then "sign off" at the 5 level.

[P_Marlowe]

East, at his 2nd turn.

At his 2nd turn it becomes clear that the 2NT bid was a psyche, the response was positive
and the 2NT bidder still wanted to play only 3H.
The question is, what X means in this situation, ..., most likely still T/O, since a psyche
is usually based on fit.
Having said that, I also would have likely passed, I encounter psyches rarely and you need to be
prepared to deal with psyches, prepared in the sense, that you are expecting them to show up during
real play, not only in theoretical discussions.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Tramticket]

P_Marlowe, on 2019-February-21, 04:03, said:

I encounter psyches rarely and you need to be prepared to deal with psyches, prepared in the sense, that you are expecting them to show up during real play, not only in theoretical discussions.

With kind regards
Marlowe

The opps were well known to us and I would not expect an outright psyche, but would not be surprised at "creatively stretching the meaning" of a bid. Here, she held a shapely 11-count, which might be very powerful if her partner held a fitting four-card side suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Tramticket, on 2019-February-21, 04:20, said:

The opps were well known to us and I would not expect an outright psyche, but would not be surprised at "creatively stretching the meaning" of a bid. Here, she held a shapely 11-count, which might be very powerful if her partner held a fitting four-card side suit.

I was thinking about hands interested in 5m, but I am not sure I can come up with weak hands that offer play for
11 tricks, when the long suit with some of the strength opener promised is hitting my shortage, and I have only
inv. strength.
Basically you are risking going down at the 3 level, versus nothing.

[nige1]

Tramticket writes "Teams of Four Match: Opponents bids are:
- 2♥ Weak (5-9). Either a six-card suit or a five-card suit with a four-card side suit.
- 2NT Artificial inquiry. Described as strong.
- 3♥ Six-card suit, upper range.
Who should double?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Agree with P_Marlowe that North has landed you in an unusual predicament.
It seems that North has psyched, so double should probably be for take-out
Hence, East, who might well have doubled 2N, could now double 3♥.
Even undoubled, however, 3♥ might provide a reasonable score

---

[apollo1201]

East, east, east! The most adventurous would even have made a TOX after the « strong » inquiry. Now that it has become clear N was probably having some fun at our expense at green vs red, we should be back with this textbook X of a 2H-3H « rectified » sequence.
West will kiss us from her seat and count with pleasure all those doubled undertricks.

[HardVector]

Tramticket, on 2019-February-21, 04:20, said:

The opps were well known to us and I would not expect an outright psyche, but would not be surprised at "creatively stretching the meaning" of a bid. Here, she held a shapely 11-count, which might be very powerful if her partner held a fitting four-card side suit.

Nah, they weren't stretching. After 2n, partner showed a good hand with 3h, per your description of their agreements. If you make an invitational 2n bid, and partner shows a good hand, you should be bidding some game. They were trying to get to 3h without any competition. They (rightly) thought that if it went 2h-3h, you would have competed.

[DozyDom]

E. E all the way. You can't sit back and let yourself be pushed around like that.

[maartenxq]

East could/should dbl for take out, but as it is pass should be good enough. EW do not miss any game or even part score as far as I can see.

On the other hand, if it goes 2 ♥- p - p - dbl is automatic and will be let in.

Maarten Baltussen

[nekthen]

Opps system appears flawed 3♥ 6 cards upper range? What are the other possible responses? You cannot fit it all into the available bids!
Also I generally refuse to assign any sort of description to a 2N relay except to say that my partner thinks it the best available bid.
West is never in a position to double. As East, I have the option to make a TO dbl, but I would be afraid that partner will have a 3433 hand and has to pass or bid 3N with insufficient points. This is a team of 4 match and I do not want to risk doubling into game v gaining an imp or two with a successful double or landing in an unplayable 4 of a minor
I'd like to know what happened at the other table. I imagine 2♥ p p x; p p p
I guess the best option is for East to double 2N and agree it shows a hand that would have doubled if N had passed, then West can double 3♥, though S may choose to pass and put pressure on West and it is all very murky!

[Tramticket]

maartenxq, on 2019-February-22, 04:38, said:

East could/should dbl for take out, but as it is pass should be good enough. EW do not miss any game or even part score as far as I can see.

No game missed and five-off for +250 gained IMPs, but I am greedy and +1,100 would have been even better!

North bid 2NT holding ♠K10865 ♥- ♦AKJ842 ♣103. She argued that partner might have held four-card support for either spades or diamonds, when her hand becomes huge. The system seems to suffer from fundamental flaws (as Nethken points out) - pity we couldn't take advantage.

[pescetom]

Tramticket, on 2019-February-21, 01:54, said:

Opponents bids are:
2♥ Weak (5-9). Either a six-card suit or a five-card suit with a four-card side suit.
2NT Artificial inquiry. Described as strong.

Tramticket, on 2019-February-22, 04:52, said:

North bid 2NT holding ♠K10865 ♥- ♦AKJ842 ♣103. She argued that partner might have held four-card support for either spades or diamonds, when her hand becomes huge. The system seems to suffer from fundamental flaws (as Nethken points out) - pity we couldn't take advantage.

I guess they could play that 2NT asks for a side suit, 3♣/♦ indicates shortage in hearts and the named suit and 3♥ is a non-forcing ask about the hearts suit - but yes, it does seems a silly system.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2019-February-22, 04:52, said:

No game missed and five-off for +250 gained IMPs, but I am greedy and +1,100 would have been even better!

North bid 2NT holding ♠K10865 ♥- ♦AKJ842 ♣103. She argued that partner might have held four-card support for either spades or diamonds, when her hand becomes huge. The system seems to suffer from fundamental flaws (as Nethken points out) - pity we couldn't take advantage.

What do they play suit bids over 2♥ as ?

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-February-22, 08:36, said:

What do they play suit bids over 2♥ as ?

I didn't get the full scheme, but 3♣ = any lower range and other bids show upper range 5-4. I have no idea how they would show upper range with 5 hearts and four clubs - I'm guessing 3NT?

[msjennifer]

Sir ,there are quite a few questions to be asked to opponents as to the COMPLETE AND FULL explanation of the 2NT bid.Leaving that aside IF AT ALL it is mandatory to tell who COULD possibly have doubled then only EAST could have over the 2NT bid.However with the apparently wasted Ace of hearts it is difficult to blame E for not taking any action risking a doubled or undoubled 3C/D/S contract.

[dsLawsd]

East should make a takeout double over 2 NT NV and pass thereafter.
Penalty doubles might prove embarrassing at IMPs as the opponents could end up in a better spot at the 3 level. But note that in ACBL land the system players must offer at least one proposed defense in advance.

While I would bid 2♠ over 2♥ instead the 2NT bid could hit paydirt if the side suits fit. If opener can really have 5-4 in the majors it surely is a bad idea (The Poles use 5-5 )

Fun hand!

[mikeh]

East has a takeout double of 2N. Now, it isn't that he is catering to the actual layout (I think the opps are nuts to use the methods as described and even more nuts to think that 2N is the correct action in the context of the method), but that the notion of faking the 2N call, when holding a weak hand with support, is hardly unknown. Besides, with the classic shape, and assuming that 2N, if based on strength, will deliver at least some heart fit, we rate to find a relatively safe place to play. Yes, doubling could lead to a disaster, but as Bobby Wolff used to say (and much as it pains me to quote him) it is too dangerous to pass.

As it happens, due to the opps using, badly, a bad method, double might have hit a home run. I'm assuming that opener would bid 3H and that west's double would not be responsive