[Cyberyeti]

This is a cold grand that we played in a small slam via a very simple auction (Dealer N: 1♦-2♦(inverted not GF)-2N(usually bal but can be diamonds only, 15+ in either case)-6N) for a flat board

Any suggestions how to bid it ? (via something natural ish, strong club relay auctions will prob excel here)

---

We could have had a much more complicated and longer auction, but I suspect we'd have finished with a straight guess for S as to which of N's aces in hearts and clubs had the third card with it.

[nullve]

Possible standard 2/1 GF auction, especially if 3♦ denies three hearts:

1♦-1♥
2N-3♣
3♦-4♦
4N-5♠
5N-6♣
6♦-6♥
6♠-7♣(?)
7N-P

Yes, Opener would have bid the same way up to and including 6♠ with AKx Ax JT9xxx Ax.

A fantasy:

1♦-2♣(!)
2♦-2N(!)
3♣-3♦
4♦-4N
5♣-5N
6♦-6♥
6♠-7N
P

[Tramticket]

Is this unreasonable?

1♦ 1♥
3♦ 4♦
4NT 5♠
5NT 7♦

nullve, on 2018-December-15, 07:01, said:

Possible standard 2/1 GF auction, especially if 3♦ denies three hearts:

1♦-1♥
2N-3♣
3♦-4♦
4N-5♠
5N-6♣
6♦-6♥
6♠-7♣(?)
7N-P

It isn't my system of course, but doesn't the 2NT rebid promise a balanced 18-19? It feels like a distortion.

[nullve]

Tramticket, on 2018-December-15, 07:56, said:

It isn't my system of course, but doesn't the 2NT rebid promise a balanced 18-19? It feels like a distortion.

Well, Opener's hand is too strong for a 15-17 NT (really!) and rebidding 2N with 6D(322) shape is hardly a distortion.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2018-December-15, 07:56, said:

Is this unreasonable?

1♦ 1♥
3♦ 4♦
4NT 5♠
5NT 7♦



It isn't my system of course, but doesn't the 2NT rebid promise a balanced 18-19? It feels like a distortion.

Doesn't the auction go the same way opposite AKx, Ax in the blacks which is much less successful ?

[pescetom]

Our auction would not be very natural here, but I can imagine others just bidding:
1♦ 1♥
3♦ 4NT
5♣ 5NT
6♠ 7NT

They have so much that they can even afford to use NT as asking strain for diamonds.

[HardVector]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-15, 08:48, said:

Doesn't the auction go the same way opposite AKx, Ax in the blacks which is much less successful ?

I think if you are worried about specific holdings and shape, you should just accept the 6n contract (which was in line with the rest of the room) and move on. Playing some kind of relay system is realistically the way to get to the grand. With standard systems, you're just guessing.

[Cyberyeti]

HardVector, on 2018-December-15, 12:12, said:

I think if you are worried about specific holdings and shape, you should just accept the 6n contract (which was in line with the rest of the room) and move on. Playing some kind of relay system is realistically the way to get to the grand. With standard systems, you're just guessing.

It's one of those positions that without a relay it's almost impossible to be exact, basically if N has ♣Ax you may be in a no play grand, if he has Axx then it's 100%, depends how you feel about that (and ♥J would give you an easy potential out that you're not going to find out about).

Basically to get there with certainty N has to treat his hand as single suited diamonds rather than balanced despite the poor suit, ask, and find out about S's 6 high cards, which is difficult.

We have a shot, the auction would have to go:

1♦-2♦(10+, 4+♦, doesn't deny 4M)
2N (15+ balanced or diamonds, GF)-3♣(art enq)
3♦(single suit ♦)-3♥
3♠-4♣(A/K)
4♥(Kickback)-5♦(2 with)
5♠(K)-6♣(Q)
?

Now the question is whether 3♥ would ever be bid without ♥K, N can count 12 tricks plus the probable ♥K, 3♥ can be just a stop.

If N signs off in 6♦, S can bid 6♥ on the way to 6N and find partner bids 7N, if N bids 6N this will end the auction, N could just punt 7♦/N.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2018-December-15, 14:20, said:

Are you sure? My head is not up to it this evening, but my gut says that 7NT should make the same.

You lose a club trick, Ax/KQ is 2 tricks, Axx/KQ is 3 and you need 3

[The_Badger]

Opening 1♦ and rebidding 3♦ with a crummy suit isn't in the equation for me. Opening 1NT and arriving in 6NT looks a likely scenario. As you say, Cyberyeti, strong ♣ opening + relay systems will arrive in 7♦ or 7NT.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-15, 14:24, said:

You lose a club trick, Ax/KQ is 2 tricks, Axx/KQ is 3 and you need 3

Thanks, that was subliminal. My head got there a second later

[Cyberyeti]

The_Badger, on 2018-December-15, 15:41, said:

Opening 1♦ and rebidding 3♦ with a crummy suit isn't in the equation for me. Opening 1NT and arriving in 6NT looks a likely scenario. As you say, Cyberyeti, strong ♣ opening + relay systems will arrive in 7♦ or 7NT.

Not an option for us, it's a bit good for a 12-14 1N

[Tramticket]

The_Badger, on 2018-December-15, 15:41, said:

Opening 1♦ and rebidding 3♦ with a crummy suit isn't in the equation for me. Opening 1NT and arriving in 6NT looks a likely scenario.

Which is strange, because the texture of this hand looks far more suit oriented than suitable for no trumps. In a diamond contract, your pojnts are all working well. Aces and ace/king combinations in short side suits are great for suit play. There are three certain diamond tricks and no effort required to set them up. Meanwhile, at no trumps, your source of tricks is diamonds and you might need to lose the lead three times to establish them. Meanwhile you have stoppers that are easy to dislodge in a no trump contract. It doesn't look like an attractive NT opening to me - even if it were in range. I am not convinced about opening 1D and rebidding NT for a similar reason.

Yes, I am a little heavy for 1D then 3D, but it describes my hand shape and texture well.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2018-December-15, 16:49, said:

Which is strange, because the texture of this hand looks far more suit oriented than suitable for no trumps. In a diamond contract, your pojnts are all working well. Aces and ace/king combinations in short side suits are great for suit play. There are three certain diamond tricks and no effort required to set them up. Meanwhile, at no trumps, your source of tricks is diamonds and you might need to lose the lead three times to establish them. Meanwhile you have stoppers that are easy to dislodge in a no trump contract. It doesn't look like an attractive NT opening to me - even if it were in range. I am not convinced about opening 1D and rebidding NT for a similar reason.

Yes, I am a little heavy for 1D then 3D, but it describes my hand shape and texture well.

Your suit plays so well opposite a singleton, could easily have 4 trump losers and one more with 7 available in NT, partner has say xxx, xxxx, x, KQJxx, 3♦-1, 1N+1.

Also you're not really heavy for 3♦, you have nearly 7 playing tricks which is pretty normal, you also have a very dangerous hand as partner can have a non bust that is worth no tricks to you (QJxx, QJxx, xx, Jxx)

[msjennifer]

Sir,quite easy if playing RKCB AND SPIRAL when we play standard.More straightforward and simple if playing PRECISION or SUPER PRECISION.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-15, 18:20, said:

Your suit plays so well opposite a singleton, could easily have 4 trump losers and one more with 7 available in NT, partner has say xxx, xxxx, x, KQJxx, 3♦-1, 1N+1.

Also you're not really heavy for 3♦, you have nearly 7 playing tricks which is pretty normal, you also have a very dangerous hand as partner can have a non bust that is worth no tricks to you (QJxx, QJxx, xx, Jxx)

I agree, that I am not heavy for 3♦ - that was a silly after-thought.


Whilst it is possible to construct hands where opening 1NT will work better, it is also easy to construct routine balanced hands for partner where you want to play in diamonds: ♠Q742 ♥954 ♦Q6 ♣K853 will be vulnerable to a heart lead if played no trumps, but will likely play for 10 tricks in diamonds. My point was that the general texture of the hand will tend to favour a suit contract rather than no trumps and whilst there are many 6322 hands where you might want to suggest a balanced shape, it feels like an unnecessary distortion on this hand.

[Cyberyeti]

msjennifer, on 2018-December-16, 01:45, said:

Sir,quite easy if playing RKCB AND SPIRAL when we play standard.More straightforward and simple if playing PRECISION or SUPER PRECISION.

I agree with the precision bit (again provided you describe the hand as diamonds rather than balanced), but I'm not totally sure about whether spiral sorts this out (it's not something I play) and distinguishes between the cases where N has what he actually has and AKx, Ax in the blacks for example, or can show the key Q in the club suit.

[nullve]

nullve, on 2018-December-15, 08:47, said:

Opener's hand is too strong for a 15-17 NT (really!)

One of my cockier moments, and sims suggest I was wrong.

[Left2Right]

Rule: Minor suits do not become second class citizens until one partner or the other can cogently dismiss the possibility of a minor suit slam. Clearly, this can't happen during the first three calls. Violating this rule is also why many non-standard NT openings fail to reach a minor suit slam that makes but where only 10 or 11 tricks are available in notrump.

With that in mind, North's full hand value and six card length is a perfectly fine jump. To forgo doing so dismisses the suit prematurely.

So at my table, it goes:
1♦ - 1♥
3♦ - 4♦
4♥(1) - 5♦(2)
5♥(3) - 5♠(4)
6♣(5) - 7NT

(1) Kickback (RKCB 1430)
(2) 2KC, with ♦Q
(3) Specific King ask.
(4) ♠K
(5) S.S.A. for clubs (See this reference)

[Povratnik]

There is Golady convention. If the partnership is at least minimally developed, that convention alone should be sufficient, regardless of the rest of their system.
On 1d South bids 2c (GF), N answers 3c (long diamond suit).
There is a difference in comparison with usual sequence 1d-1h-2NT (or 3d). When hears 3d, North KNOWS the partner has at least an opening strength. So he quebids 3h.
It could be only a NT control, but soon it will be revealed that it's actually a slam control. South will answer 4c, 4d or 4h - depending on specific meaning of these bids in their system.
North will confirm slam interest by repeating 4h or bidding 4s. South knows that he has much more that he showed up so far and realizes that slam is a must and Grand is the real goal.
He'll jump to RKCB bid (whatever it is in their partnership) and learn that partner has 3 aces. He'll ask for the only missing king and get a positive answer. Now...

If North has any plus (any queen, 7th diamond, 3rd club), there are 13 tricks. If afraid to conclude 7NT, South can bid 7c. With 3rd club, North will say 7NT...