[mayoutu]

After partner's 1NT opening, how do I express slam interest in club/diamond if I have no 4-major, like a hand 1-2-3-7 with long clubs and 15+ HCP?

I see that Stayman can only explore spade/heart slam interest and most likely the responder has 14- HCP.

Thanks for your help.

[Tramticket]

Hi Mayoutu and welcome to the forums.

You will find that everyone on here (including me) will have their own pet methods for bidding over a 1NT. But if you don't have any complex agreements with partner a simple 3♣ response should be natural and forcing and will tend to show slam interest (since you don't often want to play in 5m).

[mayoutu]

I checked SAYC system at BBO which says 3♣ is invitational (6-8 HCP). Is this the popular system that most players are using?

Tramticket, on 2018-December-11, 02:26, said:

Hi Mayoutu and welcome to the forums.

You will find that everyone on here (including me) will have their own pet methods for bidding over a 1NT. But if you don't have any complex agreements with partner a simple 3♣ response should be natural and forcing and will tend to show slam interest (since you don't often want to play in 5m).

[pescetom]

mayoutu, on 2018-December-11, 03:02, said:

I checked SAYC system at BBO which says 3♣ is invitational (6-8 HCP). Is this the popular system that most players are using?

Many people say they play SAYC but then play something more modern instead. But yes, in SAYC 3C was invitational and 4C Gerber, so you're stuck there. 2S was puppet to 3C, but only to show a minor bust. Most of us play that 2S is a transfer to clubs, which will do the trick, although you will find less agreement about how to transfer to diamonds (2NT is quite common, so beware if you just want to make a natural invite). In any case I suggest you only employ minor transfers with a trusted partner who has studied the developments.

[awm]

The most popular current system seems to be four-way transfers. Here you bid 2♠ to transfer to clubs, then bid the short suit. This shows a game force with long clubs and the appropriate shortness; it could just be looking for the best game (picture some 9-hcp hand with the same shape) but further bidding will clarify the slam interest.

In SAYC (or many other systems without four-way transfers) the way to proceed is to start with 2♣ (stayman) and follow with 3♣ (natural and forcing to game). This is ambiguous about whether a four-card major is held, but definitely shows the long suit and the strength.

Of course, as mentioned previously people have their own pet methods over 1NT and there are a lot of variants out there.

[The_Badger]

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

Well it all depends who you are playing with, and what system you are playing. Awm's, Tramticket's and pescetom's replies are three ways to play it. I see that from your profile you are an experienced player, so playing with a player of similar level I would expect:-

2♠ to be a transfer to ♣s, and 2NT is a transfer to ♦s. Opener bids the next suit up (2NT for ♣s; 3♣ for ♦s) without support, but bids the transfer suit with 4 card support or three to an honour (Ace, King or Queen). (Some players may only use three to A or K here.)

Some players prefer to bid shortness after that, others prefer their second suit to be a four card suit. Alternatively you could just use a variation of Blackwood, with the transfer suit automatically agreed as the trump suit, even if opener has showed minimal support when asked to transfer.

[Tramticket]

mayoutu, on 2018-December-11, 03:02, said:

I checked SAYC system at BBO which says 3♣ is invitational (6-8 HCP). Is this the popular system that most players are using?

Wow - what a pointless treatment!

A simple method, if playing Stayman and red-suit transfers, is to use 2♠ as a relay to sign-off in 3m and use a direct 3m as natural and forcing. A variant on this is to use 2♠ as an invitational NT hand (with various continuations) and 2NT as the relay to sign-off in 3m.

Many (including me) play four-suit transfers. Under this scheme 2♠ is a transfer to clubs (weak or strong) and 2NT is a transfer to diamonds (weak or strong). This does mean that the invitational NT hand has to go through Stayman (or sometimes through the 2♦ transfer).

I am no fan of Gerber either.

[mayoutu]

Thank you guys for the comments! I heard that (maybe in a different system) 2♠ is minor-Stayman and 2NT/3C is showing a weak hand with long ♣/♦ (requesting a transfer).

Actually, I don't have a partner, and I always play with robots at BBO. The problem is that robots have poor bidding systems and poor judgments. But it's very relaxing playing there with no time limit, no tough comments.

[fromageGB]

There is no problem with the comment you heard other than the "weak" constraint. I too play 2♠ as minor suit stayman asking for a 4-card minor, 2NT as a compulsory transfer to clubs, and 3♣ as a compulsory transfer to diamonds. However, one of the advantages of transfers is that you can show a long suit and then continue with strength, or something else to show. Any of these bids can be made with slam-interested hands. If I think I specifically want 4 card support for my long suit, then i bid 2♠ and give up on slam if opener bids 2NT (denying one). If I am happy with 3-card then I will start with a transfer.

Continuations depend on partnership understandings, and you will never explore those if you play with only robots. I think to develop your understanding of the game it is essential to play with people until you find one who is prepared to put more into the game to get more out of it.

[smerriman]

mayoutu, on 2018-December-11, 05:20, said:

Thank you guys for the comments! I heard that (maybe in a different system) 2♠ is minor-Stayman and 2NT/3C is showing a weak hand with long ♣/♦ (requesting a transfer).

Actually, I don't have a partner, and I always play with robots at BBO. The problem is that robots have poor bidding systems and poor judgments. But it's very relaxing playing there with no time limit, no tough comments.

If you're playing with GIB then 2NT is a transfer to clubs, but not necessarily weak. You can follow up with 3 of another suit to show shortness in that suit; if partner bids 3NT and you're still interested in slam, you can keep bidding.

[rmnka447]

You have 3 possible ways to show a minor over 1 NT assuming you only play 2 ♦ and 2 ♥ as transfers to ♥ and ♠:

o Bid the 3 of the minor directly over 1 NT,
o Bid 2 ♠ as a relay to 3 ♣, then correct to ♦, if necessary, and,
o Bid Stayman and then over the NT bidder's response, bid your minor.

Fortunately, there are levels of minor hands -- ones where you want to just play 3 of a minor, ones that are invitational to game, and ones that are game forcing. So you can cover all bases by assigning one of those sequences to each task.

My experience has been that most people use the 2 ♠ relay to 3 ♣ as a pass or correct signoff sequence. Then you can take your choice as to whether to play the direct bid of a minor or the Stayman sequence as forcing. The other sequence then becomes the invitational sequence.

Whichever way you do it, the way you show slam interest in a minor is to go through the forcing sequence and then rebid your minor at the 4 level (usually over 3 NT by opener).


So if you choose to make the Stayman sequence forcing, then -

1 NT - 2 ♣
2 ♥ - 3 ♣
3 NT - 4 ♣

would show slam interest in ♣.

As for choosing which way to show game forcing values, I've seen good players do it both ways. The majority of players seem to use the direct bids as invitational and the Stayman sequence as forcing. The invitational sequences usually show (for 15-17 NTs), 6-8 and a good 6 card suit with honors. Something like AQ10xxx would be enough. Knowing you have good cards in the suit may enable opener to bid 3 NT even with a minimum if holding the right cards - something like ♠ AK09x ♥ QJ10 ♦ KQ10 ♣ xxx or ♠ Axxx ♥ Axxx ♦ Axx ♣ Kx.

[pescetom]

rmnka447, on 2018-December-11, 14:32, said:

You have 3 possible ways to show a minor over 1 NT assuming you only play 2 ♦ and 2 ♥ as transfers to ♥ and ♠:

o Bid the 3 of the minor directly over 1 NT,
o Bid 2 ♠ as a relay to 3 ♣, then correct to ♦, if necessary, and,
o Bid Stayman and then over the NT bidder's response, bid your minor.

The first is obsolete and likely to be misunderstood, even if part of SAYC.
The second as you say is usually played either as a weak signoff in minors or a transfer to clubs.
The third is effective and can open a way to force above 3NT, but it still is no substitute for a minor transfer.
I see no good reason not to play minor transfers, except lack of agreement with or trust in partner.

[rmnka447]

pescetom, on 2018-December-11, 16:05, said:

The first is obsolete and likely to be misunderstood, even if part of SAYC.
The second as you say is usually played either as a weak signoff in minors or a transfer to clubs.
The third is effective and can open a way to force above 3NT, but it still is no substitute for a minor transfer.
I see no good reason not to play minor transfers, except lack of agreement with or trust in partner.

The question by OP seems to a basic one that someone trying to master SAYC might pose. In that vein, providing information on fairly widely used methods would seem to be more appropriate. Providing some basic scheme that is easier to learn and can be used with just about anyone would seem more right for OP than more complicated methods that few players are likely to know. KISS applies.

To be sure, there will be some players who use more involved methods like you prefer. But I'd bet if you attended a tournament or club games on this side of the pond, you'd find something like 75% of the players playing some variation of what I outlined. I checked Bridge World Standard 2017 (sort of a default bidding system/ bidding agreements for pick up expert partnerships and expert bidding problem contests). It lists a modified four suit transfer scheme which is more in line with your thinking. But the way experts play isn't necessarily easily translatable or desirable for people trying to get the basics down.

[fromageGB]

rmnka447, on 2018-December-12, 02:37, said:

... a modified four suit transfer scheme which is more in line with your thinking. But the way experts play isn't necessarily easily translatable or desirable for people trying to get the basics down.

I would have thought that 4-suit transfers (transfer directly to the suit you want to play in) is MUCH simpler for beginners, rather than your suggested :

rmnka447, on 2018-December-11, 14:32, said:

1 NT - 2 ♣
2 ♥ - 3 ♣
3 NT - 4 ♣
would show slam interest in ♣.

This is really confusing. You use stayman to find 4-card major fits, and 1NT 2♣ 2♥ 3♣ is likely to be met with 4♠ if opener has both majors. No, the "basics" way is to transfer to your suit, so opener plays the hand with his side-suit strengths, then show slam desire.

[Vampyr]

pescetom, on 2018-December-11, 16:05, said:

The first is obsolete and likely to be misunderstood, even if part of SAYC.
The second as you say is usually played either as a weak signoff in minors or a transfer to clubs.
The third is effective and can open a way to force above 3NT, but it still is no substitute for a minor transfer.
I see no good reason not to play minor transfers, except lack of agreement with or trust in partner.

Don’t forget that if you play 2♠ as a relay, you don’t have to pass or correct. This leaves 3♥, 3♠ and 3NT idle. These bids should be put to good use.

[mayoutu]

smerriman, on 2018-December-11, 13:20, said:

If you're playing with GIB then 2NT is a transfer to clubs, but not necessarily weak. You can follow up with 3 of another suit to show shortness in that suit; if partner bids 3NT and you're still interested in slam, you can keep bidding.

I see. Thanks.

rmnka447, on 2018-December-11, 14:32, said:

So if you choose to make the Stayman sequence forcing, then -

1 NT - 2 ♣
2 ♥ - 3 ♣
3 NT - 4 ♣

would show slam interest in ♣.

After 4♣, how does opener show negative attitude on clubs? If NT is the most likely contract, how to reach natural 4NT? (Or the contract must be in clubs and 5♣ is the minimum.)

[JanisW]

mayoutu, on 2018-December-14, 05:03, said:

I see. Thanks.



After 4♣, how does opener show negative attitude on clubs? If NT is the most likely contract, how to reach natural 4NT? (Or the contract must be in clubs and 5♣ is the minimum.)

You've answered that question yourself. He simply bids 4NT, there is no rule that a 4NT bid has to be RKCB, it is allowed to be natural. The 1NT opener should rarely ask for Aces anyway as his hand is much better defined. The 4♣-bid is still unlimited. How is the 1NT opener supposed to decide between 5/6/7 level by employing RKCB?
Any other bid then 4NT I would treat as control-showing on the way to 6 or 7 clubs or even 7NT for all I know.

[JanisW]

On a further note, If I had opened 1NT and the bidding went as it did, I would not consider myself asked if I liked ♣. I would consider myself asked to show a control if I had one.
To bid 4NT my hand had to look something like this KQx,KQxx,KJxx,Qx. If I had an Ace I would feel obliged to tell Partner about it.

[HardVector]

mayoutu, on 2018-December-11, 03:02, said:

I checked SAYC system at BBO which says 3♣ is invitational (6-8 HCP). Is this the popular system that most players are using?

If you are playing 3c/3d as invitational, the way to show a forcing hand is to start with 2c (Stayman). After partner bids their major (or 2d), then you bid 3c/3d to show that suit and is now forcing. At that point, you no longer promise a major suit, you are strictly interested in the minor.

Originally, when 3c/3d (and 3h/3s) were forcing and natural, the way to show invitational hands was to start with 2c. When you switch the meaning of the direct bid, you also switch the meaning of the delayed bid.

That being said, 4 suit transfers are better.

[dokoko]

mayoutu, on 2018-December-11, 05:20, said:

Thank you guys for the comments! I heard that (maybe in a different system) 2♠ is minor-Stayman and 2NT/3C is showing a weak hand with long ♣/♦ (requesting a transfer).

Actually, I don't have a partner, and I always play with robots at BBO. The problem is that robots have poor bidding systems and poor judgments. But it's very relaxing playing there with no time limit, no tough comments.

IMO a weak-only transfer is a great waste of bidding space (no rebid except pass has a defined meaning). So with a strong minor one-suiter, transfer to your suit and then bid on (new suit = shortness, 3NT = nonforcing slam try, rebid your suit = balanced slam try).