[Tramticket]

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I'm letting you see both hands. What contract do you want to reach at MP Pairs? hearts or spades? Game or even slam?

With no opposition bidding, how are you bidding these hands?

[Cyberyeti]

I think I'm getting to 4♠, good question where I want to be.

[pescetom]

I think I'm getting to 5♠ and want to be in 4♠.
It's a pig to bid but hopefully no harm done this time, slam looks very dicey.

[ggwhiz]

I want to be in 6♠ (3-2 spades and ruff the hearts good or find the diamonds) but will only get to 4♠

With south bidding my stiff more than once and potentially holding short spades early in the bidding I see no way to find the perfect mesh in the minors.

[pescetom]

ggwhiz, on 2018-October-17, 07:32, said:

I want to be in 6♠ (3-2 spades and ruff the hearts good or find the diamonds)

That looks about 56% on the back of an envelope (68% * (43% + (57% * 68%))

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2018-October-17, 08:14, said:

That looks about 56% on the back of an envelope (68% * (43% + (57% * 68%))

It's not that simple for several reasons, a spade lead means that bringing in the diamonds doesn't help as you won't be able to ruff a club. A heart lead removes some options in the heart suit as I assume you will rise with the ace and draw trumps rather than risk an overruff, now you need hearts 3-2 with the ruffing finesse working or (hearts 4-1 with the K onside and bringing the diamonds in).

[mr1303_2]

I am bidding 4H on the sequence 1H 1S 2H 3D 3H 3S 4H.

[wank]

mr1303_2, on 2018-October-17, 10:53, said:

I am bidding 4H on the sequence 1H 1S 2H 3D 3H 3S 4H.

that's amazingly negative bidding from south.

[The_Badger]

wank, on 2018-October-17, 11:02, said:

that's amazingly negative bidding from south.

Agree. It's a hand that just looks ready made for a no-farting-around-the-edges sequence of 1♥ - 1♠ - 4♥

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-October-17, 08:33, said:

It's not that simple for several reasons, a spade lead means that bringing in the diamonds doesn't help as you won't be able to ruff a club. A heart lead removes some options in the heart suit as I assume you will rise with the ace and draw trumps rather than risk an overruff, now you need hearts 3-2 with the ruffing finesse working or (hearts 4-1 with the K onside and bringing the diamonds in).

Absolutely, just wanted to emphasise that even if everything falls nicely it wasn't a great slam chance.

[mikeh]

I think the auction, in a 2/1 context, would go 1S 2H 2S 3H.....

Some play that 2S shows 6+; I don't for a number of what I consider to be very good reasons. Either way, South is hearts, not spades, even with a doubleton spade.

Over 3H, N's once promising hand isn't that promising anymore, so I would content myself with 4H, and as South, I'd be worried that we might be missing a good slam...say AKxxxx Kx Kx xxx. However, I think North could risk 4D on that hand.

So I think that I'd end up in 4H, but I might well get to the 5-level on a day when I felt optimistic.

I'd like to be in 4S, but I don't know how one can get there without there being a large element of 'knowing the hand'. No real player would bid hearts just once, and North should be expecting that his hand is probably worth more to South than South's hand is worth to him (wrongly, as it turns out, because South has 2 spades and the Q of diamonds).

[Tramticket]

mikeh, on 2018-October-17, 13:50, said:

I think the auction, in a 2/1 context, would go 1S 2H 2S 3H.....

Some play that 2S shows 6+; I don't for a number of what I consider to be very good reasons. Either way, South is hearts, not spades, even with a doubleton spade.

Over 3H, N's once promising hand isn't that promising anymore, so I would content myself with 4H, and as South, I'd be worried that we might be missing a good slam...say AKxxxx Kx Kx xxx. However, I think North could risk 4D on that hand.

So I think that I'd end up in 4H, but I might well get to the 5-level on a day when I felt optimistic.

I'd like to be in 4S, but I don't know how one can get there without there being a large element of 'knowing the hand'. No real player would bid hearts just once, and North should be expecting that his hand is probably worth more to South than South's hand is worth to him (wrongly, as it turns out, because South has 2 spades and the Q of diamonds).

Sorry Mike, East is the dealer (and passed) ... so not 2over1 auction.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2018-October-17, 13:50, said:

I think the auction, in a 2/1 context, would go 1S 2H 2S 3H.....

Some play that 2S shows 6+; I don't for a number of what I consider to be very good reasons. Either way, South is hearts, not spades, even with a doubleton spade.

Over 3H, N's once promising hand isn't that promising anymore, so I would content myself with 4H, and as South, I'd be worried that we might be missing a good slam...say AKxxxx Kx Kx xxx. However, I think North could risk 4D on that hand.

So I think that I'd end up in 4H, but I might well get to the 5-level on a day when I felt optimistic.

I'd like to be in 4S, but I don't know how one can get there without there being a large element of 'knowing the hand'. No real player would bid hearts just once, and North should be expecting that his hand is probably worth more to South than South's hand is worth to him (wrongly, as it turns out, because South has 2 spades and the Q of diamonds).

E passes so S opens Mike, presumably 1♥

Our auction would be 1♥-1♠-3♥-3♠-4♠

S knows there's a misfit, N has (if he's not bidding on) a suit that is being suggested as better (or a lot longer) than say AQJxxx and a probable singleton (maybe void) in hearts. Also 3♥ is clear for us, 7.5 playing tricks and we limit the 3♥ rebid by the failure to go thru a GF 2N rebid.

[steve2005]

pescetom, on 2018-October-17, 13:30, said:

Absolutely, just wanted to emphasise that even if everything falls nicely it wasn't a great slam chance.

Things can fall into place and walla! But easy for problems to arise.
One thing you have going for you if spades are 3-2 (which you need) the odds for hearts being 3-2 goes up.

[aawk]

Holding a 7 card major and 5 LTC I open at 4 level being 4♥ or 4♠ with 0-1 aces and 4 ♣ or 4♦ with 2-4 aces.

In this case south will open 4♣ and north has 3 options to respond.

option 1 : 4♣ - 4♦ = relay to 4♥ to play or slam forcing (7 LTC or better) with at least 1 ace

option 2 : 4♣ - 4♥ = slam forcing (7 LTC or better) with no aces

option 3 : 4♣ - asking aces being RKC (4nt at least 1 ace) or EBW (4♠, 5♣ or 5♦)


Bidding could be :

4♣ - 4♦
4♥ - 4nt
5♠ - 6♥


or :

4♣ - 4nt
5♠ - 6♥

[Tramticket]

aawk, on 2018-October-18, 01:13, said:

Holding a 7 card major and 5 LTC I open at 4 level being 4♥ or 4♠ with 0-1 aces and 4 ♣ or 4♦ with 2-4 aces.

In this case south will open 4♣ and north has 3 options to respond.

option 1 : 4♣ - 4♦ = relay to 4♥ to play or slam forcing (7 LTC or better) with at least 1 ace

option 2 : 4♣ - 4♥ = slam forcing (7 LTC or better) with no aces

option 3 : 4♣ - asking aces being RKC (4nt at least 1 ace) or EBW (4♠, 5♣ or 5♦)


Bidding could be :

4♣ - 4♦
4♥ - 4nt
5♠ - 6♥


or :

4♣ - 4nt
5♠ - 6♥

This seems very inefficient. You are starting the bidding so high that all you can do is find out about the number of losers and the number of aces.

There is a reason why most players choose to reserve four-level openers for pre-emptive hands and will start lower when holding opening values.

Are you sure that you want to play these hands in hearts? At the six-level?

[maartenxq]

1 ♥ - 2♠
3 ♠ - 4 ♦
4 nt- 5 ♠
6 ♠

This needs ♠and ♥3-2 so is not a sound contract. In mps 4 +2 is generally enough, but I think I would land in slam.

Maarten Baltussen

[msjennifer]

maartenxq, on 2018-October-18, 06:00, said:

1 ♥ - 2♠
3 ♠ - 4 ♦
4 nt- 5 ♠
6 ♠

This needs ♠and ♥3-2 so is not a sound contract. In mps 4 +2 is generally enough, but I think I would land in slam.

Maarten Baltussen

Sir,our auction will go 1H-1S-3H-3S-4S.
It is my personal opinion ,the way we play the system, the S hand is totally unsuitable to be opened either 4C/H because of the presence of AQx outside and the heart suit is not what one can need to make any high preemptive/constructive bid opposite a NON PASSED PARTNER.
We also play the LTC but that is applicable ONLY when a SUIT FIT has been discovered or when the suit is absolutely strong needing no support whatever from partnerThe present S hand has at least 6 losers as the heart suit is ordinary and with no reason to suppose that it is a one loser suit initially.

[pescetom]

msjennifer, on 2018-October-18, 09:25, said:

Sir,our auction will go 1H-1S-3H-3S-4S.
...(omissis)...
We also play the LTC but that is applicable ONLY when a SUIT FIT has been discovered or when the suit is absolutely strong needing no support whatever from partnerThe present S hand has at least 6 losers as the heart suit is ordinary and with no reason to suppose that it is a one loser suit initially.

I follow you to a certain point. After the 4S bid, North knows that there is a suit fit and as responder holding 5 losers he must be intrigued by South's jump bid. How many losers does he credit South with, to pass?

[Tramticket]

For what its worth, the actual hands were:

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The room divided 50:50 between 4♥ and 4♠ But the 4♥ declarers only scored 11 tricks, whereas the 4♠ declarers were able to ruff out the ♥K and score 12 or 13 tricks (depending upon the lead).

We played in 4♥.