[pescetom]

rhm, on 2018-September-22, 12:53, said:

What has money exchange to do with our discussion?
There is no page 39

Rainer Herrmann

My apologies, wrong link: now corrected.

[rhm]

nullve, on 2018-September-23, 04:53, said:

IMO,

1x-1y; 2z(x<z<y)

and

1x-1y; 3w(w<x<y)

are F1 and FG, respectively, only opposite a positive Responder, regardless of what books on standard bidding aimed at non-experts say. The reason is that a good player will often respond on subpositive (~0-4 hcp) hands in an attempt to improve the contract, and his best bet over 1x-1y; 2z/3w will then often be to pass, even though it could lead to silly results, as in

Opener: AKx-AQ-AQTxxxx-x
Responder: Jxxxx-xxx-x-Jxxx
Auction:

1♦-1♠
2♥-P

or

1♦-1♠
3♣-P,

where Opener has faked a second suit.

I understand this, but this is a different discussion, whether you are allowed to pass a forcing or game forcing bid.
This has nothing to do with the question of experts or non experts and there are 2 sides to every coin.

We were not dealing with sub minimum repsonses, but with the question whether you should have system sequences stopping short of game by design when opener jumps in a new suit.
There are numerous hands on BBO, where many refused to open very strong hands with a game forcing 2♣ because strong two and three-suiters are often hard to describe if you start with an artificial game forcing (2♣).
So you don't in spite of the risk that your one-level opening may be passed out.
But if responder next passes your game forcing rebid I wonder how you want to deal with these very strong hands in practice.

Rainer Herrmann

[MrAce]

Hi, we do not know whether you play MP or IMPs.
If I partnered myself I would probably miss the slam in this auction, particularly at MP.


1♦--1♥
3♣--3♦
4♥--Pass

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2018-September-23, 20:02, said:

Hi, we do not know whether you play MP or IMPs.
If I partnered myself I would probably miss the slam in this auction, particularly at MP.


1♦--1♥
3♣--3♦
4♥--Pass

I would hardly stop on this auction and would likely go down in 6♥

Rainer Herrmann

[Flem72]

No reasonable East would pass 2♣. No reasonable West would pass 2♠ after 2♣. No reasonable West would not bid 3/4♥ after partner's 2♠. IMHO this layout has more to do with two voids than it does with 2/1 structures.

[The_Badger]

smerriman, on 2018-September-23, 02:31, said:

A reverse is not forcing to game. 3♣ is a jump shift, not a reverse, and *is* forcing to game.

From Wikipedia: A high level reverse (a term used in the UK and in Acol), when opener's second bid is in a new lower ranked suit at the three level, is forcing to game.

I didn't realise that the term 'high reverse' is peculiar to Acol and the UK. You're right in saying it is a jump shift, too. I was always brought up that if you went 1M - 3m as opposed to 1m - 2M you should have a slightly stronger hand as the bidding has gone one level higher.

[gordontd]

smerriman, on 2018-September-23, 02:31, said:

A reverse is not forcing to game. 3♣ is a jump shift, not a reverse, and *is* forcing to game.

A reverse after a two-level response is forcing to game, even in modern Acol though traditionally it was not.

[Lovera]

This hand seems like that one in Kantar's pdf (see my topic "Exclusion" in GBD) that i report:"EKB AFTER THREE LEVEL NON-AGREEMENT
After three level non-agreement, a jump to the five level in the void suit is EKB. You really have to have the goods to use EKB in these sequences, particularly if the suit has not been rebid. A partnership could live beautifully without this one... but there is always that one hand...
You hold: S. - H. AJxx D. AQx C. KQxxxx [in this topic H turns in D, D in C, C in H changing the J in Q too]
Opener (you) Responder
1C....................1D
1H....................3D
?


If you want to make an make an exclusion ask in spades, buckle up because you have to go to 5S; 4S is a splinter jump.
If partner responds 5NT "0"!) sign off in 6D and hope the diamond finesse works!
If partner responds 6C ("1), sign off in 6D.
If partner responds 6D ("2"), the DK and the CA, bid the grand."
But you can read one page later in The Bottom Line that for an opener that has reverse or jump shifted are all exempeted from splintering than follows up that after
three or four level agreement jumps are EKB.(Lovera)

[P_Marlowe]

briannz556, on 2018-September-19, 13:19, said:

<snip>
My Partner and I are playing 2/1 Marty Bergen style bidding [ as best we can ] and we managed to get to 6D with various Control Bids. Can I seek expert opinion on a sensible approach to bidding a slam in either H or D. To get the ball rolling, I opened 1D and partner responded 1H. Jumping to 3C seemed to me to be the best way to force P to bid and at the same time describe my hand. Any help would be appreciated.

#1 The first decision is 2C or 3C, if you add a jack to the West Hand, nobody would Question the 3C bid,
without the Jack it is close
If you bid 2C, Partner will usually give Preference to 2D, and after that you are well positioned.
If he passes, he will have more Clubs than diamonds, usually at least two more, he will have at most
5 hearts, chances are, that you dont have game.
In short: I am slightly in favor of 2C, but it comes down to where you draw the line, and how you define the
line. For me 17HCP are no jump / no game force, with 18HCP I jump / I force to game.
Is this perfect? No. Will they call me a bean counter? Sure. Do I care? No, it Safes Energy.
There are conventions, that help with openers Hand (showing 6+ and 3 Cards in Partners Major), but those
conventions require some changes, e.g. we Play weak NT combined with a wide range NT rebid.
#2 After 3C, you Need to discuss, how many hearts 3H is showing, and the meaning of 3S, we would Play it as FSF,
but this is of not much use in the given seq., since there is no room left between 3S and 3NT.
#3 Over 3C, I would bid 4D, Setting Diamonds as trumps, and forgetting hearts, since after 3H, say 5+, and
if Partner cannot raise to 4H it becomes messy.

PS: The MP Argument for settling in 4H after a jump shift auction is quite valid. It looses some weight, if you
strengthen your jump shifts, since responder will be vary to stop in 4H, but than openers Hand may not be worth a
jump shift.

[GrahamJson]

pescetom, on 2018-September-22, 10:25, said:

Here's an example of a competitive five card major system where if responder returns to the opening suit the game force is dropped:


Italian 5 card major system
(See top of page 39).

This is not widespread but neither unknown nor unreasonable.

Top of page 39 says that the sequence 1D - 1M - 3C is "FM", or forcing to game. As it is in all natural systems (maybe not in strong club systems in which the opening is limited to 15 or 16).

[pescetom]

GrahamJson, on 2018-December-20, 10:58, said:

Top of page 39 says that the sequence 1D - 1M - 3C is "FM", or forcing to game. As it is in all natural systems (maybe not in strong club systems in which the opening is limited to 15 or 16).

But on the next line it notes: "Only in the case when the responder rebids 3♦ (which is a "courtesy response" with perhaps only ♦xx), the opener - with a reverse of minimal strength - can pass."
In other words, rebidding the opener's first suit is discouraging, does not promise a real fit and cancels the game force.

[Winstonm]

I must be the oddball here as I don't like the 3C bid. Suppose partner had responded 1H holding: KQxx, 10xxx, xx, Jxx? Where are you going after 3C? West has a good hand, but not so good that game is right when partner can't move over 2C.

[nige1]

briannz556 writes "I was sitting West with this hand yesterday West which caused me issues: My Partner and I are playing 2/1 Marty Bergen style bidding [ as best we can ] and we managed to get to 6D with various Control Bids. Can I seek expert opinion on a sensible approach to bidding a slam in either H or D. To get the ball rolling, I opened 1D and partner responded 1H. Jumping to 3C seemed to me to be the best way to force P to bid and at the same time describe my hand. Any help would be appreciated."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
briannz556's 3♣ rebid seems pushy but reasonable
IMO, opener's jump shift is F/G in Marty Bergen's 2/1.
On the left is a possible continuation

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