Help
I put this here because it's more a matter of 'good practice' rather than Law.
In today's pairs we had a disagreement about number of tricks taken. I was certain I'd made my contract, but the others' cards showed different: two showed one down, the fourth showed two down. We settled for one down.
I was a bit miffed because if I'd realised I was going down, I'd have planned the play different. And since the contract was 2♥ doubled, the difference between making and not making was substantial! Ah well - couldn't be helped.
Ours is a friendly club and we're loath to call the TD for this sort of thing - it only sows discontent. Would it have been ethical, perhaps, for me to ask all players to face their played cards so that we could determine who was right? But that too would have upset the opponents. I didn't want to go there.
So - sets me thinking. Dummy doesn't have an awful lot to do, and doesn't have many rights. He/she does have the right to alert wrongly pointed cards at the end of each trick (Law 65B). Should it be suggested that dummy has a duty to keep an eye on things like this?
Page 1 of 1
Wrongly pointed cards
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,760
- Joined: 2006-January-30
Posted 2018-September-06, 19:22
CALL THE TD!!!!
Calling the TD does NOT sow discontent (at least, if your TD is not utterly incompetent, which is another thread...), but trying to "work it out" often does.
Calling the TD does NOT sow discontent (at least, if your TD is not utterly incompetent, which is another thread...), but trying to "work it out" often does.
#3
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 2,493
- Joined: 2003-February-12
- Gender:Male
- Location:Dartmouth, NS, Canada
Posted 2018-September-06, 20:14
When people disagree on the number of tricks taken, the procedure for settling it usually involves reviewing a trick by trick replay to settle discrepancies.
That's why the rules say quitted tricks must be kept in the order they were played.
And yes, dummy and defenders should keep an eye on what their partner is doing
.
That's why the rules say quitted tricks must be kept in the order they were played.
And yes, dummy and defenders should keep an eye on what their partner is doing
.
#4
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,366
- Joined: 2012-March-18
- Gender:Male
- Location:Illinois
- Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer
Posted 2018-September-06, 20:24
Call the director if you are uncertain about a result.
It doesn't matter which direction the cards are pointed. As long as the order that the cards were played is intact you can reconstruct what happened.
It's perfectly fair to review what happened to make sure the right result is obtained. No one should be upset about that happening because people do turn cards the wrong way all the time. If a wrong result is entered, it's not only unfair to someone at your table, but also to other people playing in the game.
There are always ways to request the review that is not accusative and less likely to ruffle any feathers, such as, "Gee, I thought I made the contract. Could we go back through the cards to see where I might have gone wrong?" or "We have several different results. Maybe we should go back through the cards to check and make sure we get the correct result as entering the wrong result affects not only ourselves but others in the game."
It doesn't matter which direction the cards are pointed. As long as the order that the cards were played is intact you can reconstruct what happened.
It's perfectly fair to review what happened to make sure the right result is obtained. No one should be upset about that happening because people do turn cards the wrong way all the time. If a wrong result is entered, it's not only unfair to someone at your table, but also to other people playing in the game.
There are always ways to request the review that is not accusative and less likely to ruffle any feathers, such as, "Gee, I thought I made the contract. Could we go back through the cards to see where I might have gone wrong?" or "We have several different results. Maybe we should go back through the cards to check and make sure we get the correct result as entering the wrong result affects not only ourselves but others in the game."
#5
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,366
- Joined: 2013-August-03
- Gender:Female
- Location:Variable private
- Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.
Posted 2018-September-07, 01:38
The dummy player should keep a watch and ensure that the opponents as also the declarer keep the cards correctly pointed after each trick.This is a simpler solution to prevent arguments and rise in tempers as also minimise the need to call the Director.
#6
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 973
- Joined: 2013-February-24
- Gender:Male
- Location:Dundee Scotland United Kingdom
- Interests:Occasional chess player. Dominoes
Posted 2018-September-07, 01:50
661_Pete, on 2018-September-06, 14:58, said:
I put this here because it's more a matter of 'good practice' rather than Law.
In today's pairs we had a disagreement about number of tricks taken. I was certain I'd made my contract, but the others' cards showed different: two showed one down, the fourth showed two down. We settled for one down.
I was a bit miffed because if I'd realised I was going down, I'd have planned the play different. And since the contract was 2♥ doubled, the difference between making and not making was substantial! Ah well - couldn't be helped.
Ours is a friendly club and we're loath to call the TD for this sort of thing - it only sows discontent. Would it have been ethical, perhaps, for me to ask all players to face their played cards so that we could determine who was right? But that too would have upset the opponents. I didn't want to go there.
So - sets me thinking. Dummy doesn't have an awful lot to do, and doesn't have many rights. He/she does have the right to alert wrongly pointed cards at the end of each trick (Law 65B). Should it be suggested that dummy has a duty to keep an eye on things like this?
In today's pairs we had a disagreement about number of tricks taken. I was certain I'd made my contract, but the others' cards showed different: two showed one down, the fourth showed two down. We settled for one down.
I was a bit miffed because if I'd realised I was going down, I'd have planned the play different. And since the contract was 2♥ doubled, the difference between making and not making was substantial! Ah well - couldn't be helped.
Ours is a friendly club and we're loath to call the TD for this sort of thing - it only sows discontent. Would it have been ethical, perhaps, for me to ask all players to face their played cards so that we could determine who was right? But that too would have upset the opponents. I didn't want to go there.
So - sets me thinking. Dummy doesn't have an awful lot to do, and doesn't have many rights. He/she does have the right to alert wrongly pointed cards at the end of each trick (Law 65B). Should it be suggested that dummy has a duty to keep an eye on things like this?
The TD should always be summoned in the event of any dispute. That is what he/she is there for....to act as mediator and arbiter. The event is irrelevant. Dummy can challenge any misplaced trick
but only at the end of play. He can also give evidence in the presence of the TD if so requested by the TD.
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
#7
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,125
- Joined: 2013-January-25
- Gender:Male
- Location:England
- Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition
Posted 2018-September-07, 02:40
I don't quite understand the oxymoronic nature of the phrases of "Ours is a friendly club" and "But that too would have upset the opponents. I wouldn't want to go there."
Friendly opponents would happily review the tricks without needing to call the TD - if that's what you wanted to happen. Only if there was a dispute after a review should the TD be called.
Friendly opponents would happily review the tricks without needing to call the TD - if that's what you wanted to happen. Only if there was a dispute after a review should the TD be called.
#8
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 300
- Joined: 2017-September-15
Posted 2018-September-07, 02:44
Good question.
However, calling the Director is a duty each player owes to the rest of the participants in the event. Some times people inadvertently place a card in the wrong direction, especially if the play is fast paced.
Our goal is to be very careful ourselves and in contracts like these perhaps to double check our mechanics to prevent silly mistakes such as miscounting the number of tricks needed as declarer or defender.
Dummy rights are somewhat limited during play- but not after the play of the hand is over.
However, calling the Director is a duty each player owes to the rest of the participants in the event. Some times people inadvertently place a card in the wrong direction, especially if the play is fast paced.
Our goal is to be very careful ourselves and in contracts like these perhaps to double check our mechanics to prevent silly mistakes such as miscounting the number of tricks needed as declarer or defender.
Dummy rights are somewhat limited during play- but not after the play of the hand is over.
#9
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 171
- Joined: 2016-December-22
- Gender:Male
- Location:New York, USA
Posted 2018-September-07, 07:53
If four players reach three different results on a hand, that's very strong evidence that a guiding hand is needed.
More important - if the players at your club are so afraid of the Director, or otherwise unwilling to seek his/her assistance, then that is a situation that must be brought to the Director's attention. One of the major duties of a Director is to ensure that all the players understand that the Director is there to sort out all irregularities, that there is no stigma attached to calling the Director, and that the best way to ensure a fair and friendly game is to have a friendly, non-partisan individual resolve any issues. In your case, failure to call the Director (and Dummy's failure to be alert to the quitted tricks) have left you with a bad experience. Your friendly club needs to become more friendly by accepting that calling the Director is just proper procedure.
More important - if the players at your club are so afraid of the Director, or otherwise unwilling to seek his/her assistance, then that is a situation that must be brought to the Director's attention. One of the major duties of a Director is to ensure that all the players understand that the Director is there to sort out all irregularities, that there is no stigma attached to calling the Director, and that the best way to ensure a fair and friendly game is to have a friendly, non-partisan individual resolve any issues. In your case, failure to call the Director (and Dummy's failure to be alert to the quitted tricks) have left you with a bad experience. Your friendly club needs to become more friendly by accepting that calling the Director is just proper procedure.
#10
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 21,603
- Joined: 2004-August-21
- Gender:Male
Posted 2018-September-07, 08:52
Pointing the cards in the wrong direction is almost always an innocent mistake. Asking to review the tricks to see who went wrong should not be viewed as an accusation of anything, just an attempt to resolve confusion, and no reasonable person should view this as anything else. This is the whole reason we arrange quitted tricks as we do, to make resolving this simple.
I'm not really sure if Law 65B3, about letting another player know that they have a card pointed incorrectly, applies to dummy. Dummy's rights are listed in Law 42; 42A2 says he keeps count of tricks won and lost, but I think this refers to arranging his own quitted tricks. Law 431b says "Dummy may not call attention to an irregularity during play.", and an incorrectly oriented quitted trick is an irregularity.
Law 79 addresses the issue of agreeing on tricks won. 79A1 says that you must agree on the number of tricks won before returning the cards to the board; this is why you should leave the quitted tricks arranged until you've agreed. 79A2 says players must not knowingly accept a trick they didn't actually win or the concession of a trick they couldn't win -- this means that if the quitted tricks don't agree, you must resolve it.
79B addresses the situation where the players can't agree on the number of tricks won, and that's when you must call the director. This usually happens if one of the players picks up their cards before agreement has been reached -- if everyone leaves their cards on the table, it should be easy to resolve the discrepancy by going through the play, and the director isn't needed.
This really shouldn't be a hassle in a "friendly" club. You see that the quitted tricks don't match, so it should be obvious that you try to figure out which ones are wrong and correct them.
As for the fact that the incorrect count may have caused you to misplay, it's too late to resolve that. If you point your own cards wrong, and misplay as a result, it's entirely your own fault. Or if you point your cards correctly, but looked at someone else's quitted tricks, again it's your own fault -- why would you believe an opponent over your own cards?
I'm not really sure if Law 65B3, about letting another player know that they have a card pointed incorrectly, applies to dummy. Dummy's rights are listed in Law 42; 42A2 says he keeps count of tricks won and lost, but I think this refers to arranging his own quitted tricks. Law 431b says "Dummy may not call attention to an irregularity during play.", and an incorrectly oriented quitted trick is an irregularity.
Law 79 addresses the issue of agreeing on tricks won. 79A1 says that you must agree on the number of tricks won before returning the cards to the board; this is why you should leave the quitted tricks arranged until you've agreed. 79A2 says players must not knowingly accept a trick they didn't actually win or the concession of a trick they couldn't win -- this means that if the quitted tricks don't agree, you must resolve it.
79B addresses the situation where the players can't agree on the number of tricks won, and that's when you must call the director. This usually happens if one of the players picks up their cards before agreement has been reached -- if everyone leaves their cards on the table, it should be easy to resolve the discrepancy by going through the play, and the director isn't needed.
This really shouldn't be a hassle in a "friendly" club. You see that the quitted tricks don't match, so it should be obvious that you try to figure out which ones are wrong and correct them.
As for the fact that the incorrect count may have caused you to misplay, it's too late to resolve that. If you point your own cards wrong, and misplay as a result, it's entirely your own fault. Or if you point your cards correctly, but looked at someone else's quitted tricks, again it's your own fault -- why would you believe an opponent over your own cards?
#11
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,760
- Joined: 2006-January-30
Posted 2018-September-07, 10:07
The_Badger, on 2018-September-07, 02:40, said:
Friendly opponents would happily review the tricks without needing to call the TD - if that's what you wanted to happen. Only if there was a dispute after a review should the TD be called.
From my experience such "friendly" opponents will often get overly exuberant while doing so and get the cards mixed up. That's why I like to just go ahead and call the TD... they can act as a traffic warden to make sure only one person is turning over cards at a time and things don't get flung around.
#12
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 7,950
- Joined: 2014-February-18
- Gender:Male
- Location:Italy
Posted 2018-September-07, 11:05
Even in our somewhat anarchic club, a request to go through the play to resolve a discrepancy is generally accepted pacifically and without any need to call the Director. I've only seen it become a problem when one of the players has not fully respected law 65 which is unfortunately not uncommon - and not surprisingly these undisciplined people are the same ones that tend to argue about tricks.
Another quite frequent problem is that disputes arise after the cards have already been returned to the board. This shouldn't be possibile, but Law 79 like many laws is not sufficiently concrete - it should say something like "The number of tricks won shall be agreed upon and the score registered and approved by both sides before all four hands have been returned to the board." I've lost count of the number of times I have said "so we took n tricks, agreed?" and one opponent says yes and the other nods vaguely, then they put away their cards, start to compile the score and dispute that we took n tricks. When I'm in South I make a point of compiling the score before anyone touches the board, but in EW all I can do is to hold onto my own cards and hope.
Another quite frequent problem is that disputes arise after the cards have already been returned to the board. This shouldn't be possibile, but Law 79 like many laws is not sufficiently concrete - it should say something like "The number of tricks won shall be agreed upon and the score registered and approved by both sides before all four hands have been returned to the board." I've lost count of the number of times I have said "so we took n tricks, agreed?" and one opponent says yes and the other nods vaguely, then they put away their cards, start to compile the score and dispute that we took n tricks. When I'm in South I make a point of compiling the score before anyone touches the board, but in EW all I can do is to hold onto my own cards and hope.
#13
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 737
- Joined: 2015-November-14
Posted 2018-September-07, 13:52
If your "friendly" club members hate it when the director is called, maybe you need a friendlier director!
Cheers,
Mike
Cheers,
Mike
#14
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 373
- Joined: 2016-May-01
Posted 2018-September-08, 02:20
Oh well - my main issue is, yes it's a friendly club, I'd like things to stay that way! And our TDs (several people take on the duty in rotation) are absolutely fine! They mostly get called for such minor irregularities as, wrong number of cards in a board slot, etc. etc.
To be honest, I think it was my mistake: I really was one down. I'm only annoyed with myself for mis-counting tricks played during the play.
Lesson learnt: be more careful about tabling played cards. I don't want to be caught out like that again.
To be honest, I think it was my mistake: I really was one down. I'm only annoyed with myself for mis-counting tricks played during the play.
Lesson learnt: be more careful about tabling played cards. I don't want to be caught out like that again.
#15
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 21,603
- Joined: 2004-August-21
- Gender:Male
Posted 2018-September-09, 23:51
miamijd, on 2018-September-07, 13:52, said:
If your "friendly" club members hate it when the director is called, maybe you need a friendlier director!
It's not usually the director they view as unfriendly. Rather, whatever reason there is for calling them is viewed as an accusation of doing something wrong.
Page 1 of 1