[luke warm]

i could be wrong here, will read my better bidding book again, but i believe anytime obar, 2nt is not natural... neither is it necessarily a puppet to clubs

[HeartA]

I am not a big fan of conventions, and I don't think we need any convention to bid this hand. IMO, double is very clear: "pd, I want to compete, but not sure of which suit. I have 5-card ♥s, and can support for either of your minors. Please pick one"

[whereagles]

Walddk, on May 9 2005, 07:52 AM, said:

I don't mind that you open 1♦ with longer clubs, but don't expect me to figure it out if I were your partner. I don't want to guess.

I agree. I prefer bids that are clear. Regardless of the merits of opening 1D on a 4D 5C (which I think are close to inexistent, but ok), I would very much prefer to play 1D plus 2C rebid as 5D 4C.

[hrothgar]

HeartA, on May 9 2005, 07:57 PM, said:

I am not a big fan of conventions, and I don't think we need any convention to bid this hand.  IMO, double is very clear: "pd, I want to compete, but not sure of which suit.  I have 5-card ♥s, and can support for either of your minors.  Please pick one"

Funny, I always thought that double meant that we were going to set the opponents in their contract...

Oh, wait... When you're talking about not liking conventions, you're assuming that conventional doubles are "natural"...

[Chamaco]

hrothgar, on May 10 2005, 02:34 PM, said:

Funny, I always thought that double meant that we were going to set the opponents in their contract...

Oh, wait... When you're talking about not liking conventions, you're asusming that conventional doubles are natural...

Agree.
I thought that unless specifically discussed this double had great probabilities to be penalty....

[hrothgar]

whereagles, on May 10 2005, 05:16 PM, said:

Walddk, on May 9 2005, 07:52 AM, said:

I don't mind that you open 1♦ with longer clubs, but don't expect me to figure it out if I were your partner. I don't want to guess.

I agree. I prefer bids that are clear. Regardless of the merits of opening 1D on a 4D 5C (which I think are close to inexistent, but ok), I would very much prefer to play 1D plus 2C rebid as 5D 4C.

Do you realize the sheer idiocy of this comment?

There are a number of players who favor opening 1♦ holding some hands with 4 Diamonds and 5+ Clubs. Typically, these are hands that strongly suggest suit play and are deemed unsuitable for a NT rebid.

In short, the decision to open 1♦ on an x=x=4=5 pattern is predicated on the decision to rebid 2♣.

You can't separate the issue...

[Gerben42]

Quote

I am not a big fan of conventions

I am a big fan of agreements. I've had too many misunderstandings with people who are not a fan of conventions and say "just play natural".

[pclayton]

Just a postscript to this problem:

Even if you buy into the idea that pard can't be 4-5 in the minors, as Justin indicates, there is no reason why pard can't be 5-6. Accordingly, I still think double has a lot of merit, since we will land on our feet in the right suit.

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on May 10 2005, 10:04 AM, said:

In short, the decision to open 1♦ on an x=x=4=5 pattern is predicated on the decision to rebid 2♣.

And now you expect your partner to do something intelligent with a hand like

Axxxx
Qx
Jxx
xxx

1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - ??

"Guess what I have partner, 5-4 or 4-5, or maybe even 6-4".

To me it is not at all natural to bid a shorter suit before a longer. I don't want to guess whether I have to pass or give preference to diamonds with the hand above. I bid 2♦ 100 times out of 100, and it really isn't my problem if you are struggling in your 4-3 fit, no matter at which level you decide to play.

You will never convince me that you have more clubs than diamonds. I will keep giving preference to diamonds.

Roland

[HeartA]

Walddk, on May 10 2005, 11:19 AM, said:

And now you expect your partner to do something intelligent with a hand like

Axxxx
Qx
Jxx
xxx

1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - ??

In this situation, I would bid 2♦ to keep bidding going if pd so desired. But this is different from problem G, in which, opp's interference gave me the chance to not to pick one minor over the other.

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on May 10 2005, 07:19 PM, said:

hrothgar, on May 10 2005, 10:04 AM, said:

In short, the decision to open 1♦ on an x=x=4=5 pattern is predicated on the decision to rebid 2♣.

And now you expect your partner to do something intelligent with a hand like

Axxxx
Qx
Jxx
xxx

1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - ??

"Guess what I have partner, 5-4 or 4-5, or maybe even 6-4".

To me it is not at all natural to bid a shorter suit before a longer. I don't want to guess whether I have to pass or give preference to diamonds with the hand above. I bid 2♦ 100 times out of 100, and it really isn't my problem if you are struggling in your 4-3 fit, no matter at which level you decide to play.

You will never convince me that you have more clubs than diamonds. I will keep giving preference to diamonds.

Roland

Funny, to me its quite un-natural to bid 1NT with a stiff, or worse yet a void...
Worse yet, rebidding 2m on a crappy 5 card suit

Assume the following hand

Void
K432
AKQ7
65432

Auction start 1♣ - 1♠

LOVE to see your suggest rebid....

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on May 10 2005, 12:15 PM, said:

Assume the following hand

Void
K432
AKQ7
65432

Auction start 1♣ - 1♠

LOVE to see your suggest rebid....

In an earlier post i clearly stated that occasionally one may decide to open 1♦ on 4-5 with an extreme hand like yours, BUT if I do, I take the full blame for ending up in a 4-3 rather than a 5-3 fit.

This is the exception to the rule, and responder can never be blamed for assuming 5-4 for the rest of this auction. You can bid clubs from now on all you like; partner will just and should only assume 5-5, 6-5, 6-6 or 7-6.

Roland

[mike777]

HaHa

Sorry for beating a dead horse but still think the panel disccussion missed the boat on this one...and most of posters are putting the cart before the horse; mixing a few metaphors.

I am still lost on how everyone here is going to differentiate a competitive 3d or x from a decent invite? I strongly disagree that playing this hand in Moysian 4-3 D fit on the few reasonable hands where p has made a free bid of 2c is the number one issue. Please don't shoot the messenger but I guess you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on May 10 2005, 08:53 PM, said:

I am still lost on how everyone here is going to differentiate a competitive 3d or x from a decent invite? I strongly disagree that playing this hand in Moysian 4-3 D fit on the few reasonable hands where p has made a free bid of 2c is the number one issue. Please don't shoot the messenger but I guess you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink.

Hi Mike

I was a 2NT bidder on this hand
Also surprised not to see it even mentioned

[keylime]

With G/B 2NT, 2NT.

Without it, yuck. 3D probably.

[Walddk]

mike777, on May 10 2005, 12:53 PM, said:

I am still lost on how everyone here is going to differentiate a competitive 3d or x from a decent invite? I strongly disagree that playing this hand in Moysian 4-3 D fit on the few reasonable hands where p has made a free bid of 2c is the number one issue. Please don't shoot the messenger but I guess you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink.

Could be because the experts on the panel strongly believe that partner is at least 5-4 in the minors, and not the other way around. You and others are entitled to disagree obviously, but that is how the vast majority of us see it. And we also knew that good/bad 2NT was not available.

If that is worth a laugh, please go ahead and enjoy.

Roland

[whereagles]

hrothgar, on May 10 2005, 03:04 PM, said:

whereagles, on May 10 2005, 05:16 PM, said:

I agree. I prefer bids that are clear. Regardless of the merits of opening 1D on a 4D 5C (which I think are close to inexistent, but ok), I would very much prefer to play 1D plus 2C rebid as 5D 4C.

Do you realize the sheer idiocy of this comment?

Watch your language, hrothgar. You have no right to address to me like that. Any more of it and I'm reporting you.

[HeartA]

Who or where defines dbl is more than 3♦? Besides, my 2 Aces are worth more than a "typical" 8 hcps.