[silvr bull]

MP and no vul. After opening 1H, partner splinters 4C. Our opening bids have good values, but our splinters are aggressive and may have little more than needed to force to game. We bid Kickback, so either partner can bid 4S to ask for aces. What should opener do next?

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[eagles123]

I would bid 4D last train. We have a pretty suitable hand and I want to give partner a chance to carry on, but blasting out blackwood seems wrong to me, especially given we have no real idea what to do with the answer.

[The_Badger]

silvr bull, on 2018-August-31, 11:26, said:

...but our splinters are aggressive and may have little more than needed to force to game.

If that's the way you play them fair enough, but I'd like splinters to have a tad more constructive feel to them than this. The hands fit well, but after 4♦ and partner bidding 4♥, let's say, are you worth another bid of 4♠ not knowing partner's range for the splinter?

Partner could well assume that you are more than minimum taking this action, so as eagles123 so rightly said, bidding 4♦ is last train. It's now up to partner to show that he has splintered on better values than needed to force to game. if he now bids 4♥, I'm going to stick.

[apollo1201]

Would partner splinter with SK, HAK and DA? That seems a lot for an aggressive splinter that I see more like l have a good fit, 2 or maybe 3 interesting cards, and a hopefully useful singleton, do hands fit well for slam? Maybe Kxx Axxxx Qxxx x.

In all cases we have lots of C losers to ruff, are missing HAK and another A, and partner doesnt have a mentionnable suit of his own to take care of the clubs (unless we can Xruf all).

So I have difficulties in bidding sth other than 4H. But 4D if my view of aggressive is actually too aggressive haha.

[msjennifer]

As I voted for "OTHER" ,I have to explain that.We play cue bids with a fitting hand .As the splinter guarantees a. control in clubs my bid is 4Spade ,which is not a kickback as has been given in the provided options.Our 4S bid In the present situation guarantees a SECOND round control in Diamonds and the Ace of Spades.Of course,it denies the DA..Lacking a control in diamonds I would have bid 4H.And with a first round control in diamonds my bid would be 4D.And most certainly when partner is willing to play in 4H opposite a 7 loser hand I certainly do not mind playing in 5H to express that I have 6or less losers(In my hand there are six losers.) By the way, we count the losers and see the shape of the hand and NOT the HCP.The presence of a 5 card club suit headed by the Ace is an unannounced value.

[msjennifer]

We play splinter bids which guarantees either a 4Card support headed by at least 2of the 4top honors or a 5card support headed by the Ace or King. No outside 5plus card suit headed by 2 of the top three honors and (for the HCP lovers) 13 plus HCP and a singleton in the named suit.We think that this method as described in Super Precision is a better one and more informative.And since we play SST and LST we don't feel the need to make splinter bids for lead direction or just to preempt opponents when we are not holding hands fitting the restrictions described above..

[ggwhiz]

You say either partner can bid 4♠ kickback and I REALLY dislike that.

Cue bidding 1st or 2nd is ambiguous enough but having a suit that neither one of you can cue doesn't seem playable to me. Over 4♦ partner without a spade control must be truly stuck and for the benefit of saving 1 step in the KC response over a major.

[bravejason]

eagles123, on 2018-August-31, 12:37, said:

... blasting out blackwood seems wrong to me, especially given we have no real idea what to do with the answer.

If one keycard, stop; if two, slam; if three, grand!
Surely, such a poetic response must succeed!

[silvr bull]

ggwhiz, on 2018-September-01, 08:15, said:

You say either partner can bid 4♠ kickback and I REALLY dislike that.

Cue bidding 1st or 2nd is ambiguous enough but having a suit that neither one of you can cue doesn't seem playable to me. Over 4♦ partner without a spade control must be truly stuck and for the benefit of saving 1 step in the KC response over a major.

For us, 4NT would be a que bid of the Kickback suit, which is S in this hand. So South (or North) can bid 4NT to que the S suit.

The essential question is should South bid above 4H? MikeH strongly supported a philosophy of invite heavy and accept light, and I agree with that viewpoint. Since our opening bids have good values, the South hand is near minimum for us, and South would pass first with a weaker hand. If North can bid above 4H to invite, then South would accept. The point of this thread is to ask if South has the "heavy" invite above 4H, or only the light accept after North invites.

[nekthen]

I can see 5♥, 2♣ and 3[c] ruffs, A♠ plus K♠ or A♦
So I need partner to hold K♠ or A♦ and AKxx♥
This is hardly a stretch but kickback is not going to tell us about KS.
If I could cue bid 4♠, then partner can bid 4N hear my 2 aces and Q♥ and then of course he has to bid 6♥ lol
Therefore partner needs to be good enough to cope with a 5♠ response and he can't count the 5th ♣
So at some point bidding a making slam may require a leap of faith or we need a tighter agreement on the number of control points promised by a splinter
4+ would be perfect on this occasion!

[pescetom]

bravejason, on 2018-September-01, 08:20, said:

If one keycard, stop; if two, slam; if three, grand!

Three keycards grand then a ♠ lead will easily send you down, at least the way many of us play splinters.

This situation needs control bidding and (preferably) Turbo, unfortunately the choice of Kickback works against us.

[dsLawsd]

This seems to be a system issue, since if partner has a perfect minimum we have a slam. Since partner has most values in our short suits we need great trumps or length in order to set up 12 tricks. Or we need a cross-ruff with partner holding the Diamond Ace.
If splinter can be light we are hosed big time. He could have used a 2NT raise to check for our shortness, but did not. You can bet that we would see a trump lead (or the diamond ace) against slam.
But if splinters show a beefy hand with shape then I agree 4 diamonds is the way to go. Here, I punt with 4 hearts since partner can still make one further try, which would be indicated if partner actually holds something like A hearts, KQ of spades, and the AQxxx of diamonds. With the AK of hearts partner knows what to do and should have bid a long suit first and listened to the further auction.

Such nice headaches we have here.

[silvr bull]

Thanks for the responses. Only 23 HCP and a quick claim for 13 tricks (HK stiff and onsides) is a testament to the power of abundant trumps and an excellent fit.

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[msjennifer]

nekthen, on 2018-September-01, 11:21, said:

I can see 5♥, 2♣ and 3[c] ruffs, A♠ plus K♠ or A♦
So I need partner to hold K♠ or A♦ and AKxx♥
This is hardly a stretch but kickback is not going to tell us about KS.
If I could cue bid 4♠, then partner can bid 4N hear my 2 aces and Q♥ and then of course he has to bid 6♥ lol
Therefore partner needs to be good enough to cope with a 5♠ response and he can't count the 5th ♣
So at some point bidding a making slam may require a leap of faith or we need a tighter agreement on the number of control points promised by a splinter
4+ would be perfect on this occasion!

Is not Kxx-Axxxx-Axxx-x. sufficient for 6h ?'l

[msjennifer]

sry for the duplicate post

[msjennifer]

sry for duplicate post
[

[nekthen]

msjennifer, on 2018-September-01, 13:02, said:

Is not Kxx-Axxxx-Axxx-x. sufficient for 6h ?'l

Yes
Much the same as xxx - AKxx - Axxxx - x, or Kxx - AKxx - xxxxx - x, or even Kxx - Kxxxx - Axxx - x
Point is K♠ is just as good as an A but harder to identify, but xxx - AKxx - Kxxxx - x is useless

[msjennifer]

I feel if as a responder I hold KQx-Axxxx-Axxx-x even a grand is possible if opener holds Axx-KQxxx-x-Axxx. Even holding Kxx-Axxxx-Axxx-x over 4S I will not mind showing the D ACE by a bid of 5D.. Make the SQ a small one and little slam is still on.( 12 opposite 11) with the present hand. Let me await to see the responders actual hand.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Our opening bids have good values, but our splinters are aggressive and may have little more than needed to force to game.

I am of the opinion that a splinter range should be from a mild slam try to a strong slam try. Bidding splinter on some random 12 count that contains a singleton does more to help the defense IMO than the offense. When you eat up large amounts of bidding room, partner should be able to see a "picture" of your hand.

With these ideas in mind, I would simply bid Blackwood.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Our opening bids have good values, but our splinters are aggressive and may have little more than needed to force to game.

I am of the opinion that a splinter range should be from a mild slam try to a strong slam try. Bidding splinter on some random 12 count that contains a singleton does more to help the defense IMO than the offense. When you eat up large amounts of bidding room, partner should be able to see a "picture" of your hand.

With these ideas in mind, I would simply bid Blackwood.

If I am forced to guess because I have no firm understanding of the splinter, then I guess it depends on my mood.