[dkham]

Matchpoints at the Club, you are dealt this South hand. You pass initially then it comes back to you. What do you bid?

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If it makes any difference, you are playing Acol with four card majors, Weak NT and three Weak Twos.

[eagles123]

i choose 4S this surely has to show diamonds as well

[nullve]

4♠

[Tramticket]

Pass. This is a stretch too far.

[Tramticket]

dkham, on 2018-August-20, 02:24, said:

If it makes any difference, you are playing Acol with four card majors, Weak NT and three Weak Twos.

It makes more difference to know what opps play. Does 1♥ promise a four or five-card suit?

[dkham]

The opponent's opening bid of 1♥ promises at least four. The 4♥ bid is natural, could be weak or strong

[Cyberyeti]

Would have kicked off with 2♠ and wouldn't have this problem. (and if I had to sort a club into my spades, I might)

[mikeh]

Nobody is vulnerable and so -500 will be a disaster. Moreover, it will be relatively easy for them to double, and to lead trump, should partner not fit spades. And of course, if he has 3 spades and passes, not only did you perhaps have some defence, but you may be about to get tapped.

In addition, partner is 'still there', which means you do not have to make the final decision, at least not as yet.

Bidding 4S now is basically gambling that partner fits spades AND will otherwise pass out 4H, since 5D is simply too easy for them to defend after you show spades, and partner runs. Competent defenders routinely lead trump on these auctions since the bidding tells them that we rate to have no side suit source of tricks...in this case, it is 'possible' that clubs will be a pleasant surprise, but the suit is so weak that it is highly unlikely that we can establish them and run them.

So my advice is to pass.

Given that this is the I/A forum, I should add that sometimes partner won't bid over 4H even if he 'should'. However, making the decision ahead of partner is not the way to deal with that problem. Partner is never going to learn when he or she should bid in these situations if we're always taking charge before he or she has a chance.

[ggwhiz]

If this gets passed out I expect to escape with 40% or so at worst and fight it out on other hands.

Surely I'm marked with short hearts meaning partner can likely make a better decision than I can, ie 4nt with both minors and a lot depends on whether my rho knows the difference between a 3♦ cue bid and the jump to 4♥. If they don't 4♠ is suicide most often.

Of course huddle and pass is verboten but I would allow a little extra time for the level of the leap.

[mikeh]

ggwhiz, on 2018-August-20, 13:30, said:

If this gets passed out I expect to escape with 40% or so at worst and fight it out on other hands.

Surely I'm marked with short hearts meaning partner can likely make a better decision than I can, ie 4nt with both minors and a lot depends on whether my rho knows the difference between a 3♦ cue bid and the jump to 4♥. If they don't 4♠ is suicide most often.

Of course huddle and pass is verboten but I would allow a little extra time for the level of the leap.

I am not sure if you meant 'verboten' literally but, even if you didn't, some might (mis-)read it that way.

To be clear: taking one's time to decide what to bid here is not an infraction. You can take as much time as you need.

The problem isn't with you. It's with the effect of the huddle on partner's permissible actions.

You take 60 seconds and pass....there is no penalty, although the opps would have the right to ask that you and your partner agree that you did huddle before opener takes another call, and if you disagree then they can and probably should (at least in serious game) call the TD...not to punish you but to establish that a huddle took place.

Switch to your partner, after you huddled and passed. Now he 'knows' that you had a problem, and that you were thinking about taking a call. This means that if taking action by him, other than passing, appears possible but not absolutely clear, then he can expect a useful dummy....the odds that you have a good hand for him are enhanced by the fact that you were thinking of action yourself.

If his hand supports the idea of action, but not so clearly that 'everyone would do this' then there will be at least two and often several 'logical alternatives' amongst which he or his peers would choose. He cannot...he may not...choose from amongst those alternatives one that was made more attractive by 'knowing' that you were thinking of bidding. It doesn't matter whether he, personally, would 'always' choose the more aggressive, or the more passive, alternative. It matters only whether, in the view of the TD, there are logical alternatives that would be considered by players of comparable skill to your partner. If so, then your partner may not choose one made attractive by your huddle and, if he does, then he only gets to keep that result if it is bad for your side...otherwise it gets rolled back.

Note that this has nothing to do with the TD views of your honesty or partner's honesty. It is also why TDs are encouraged to poll (and in serious events invariably poll) other players, since most TDs are not very experienced players and should not be making the decision about what is or is not a logical alternative.

As an example, at the last ACBL Nationals I played in, in 2017, both my partner and I were polled several times about hands in the Spingold and the closing Swiss event (obviously on hands we had not played nor would play).

If you huddle and pass, partner is still there, but very tightly constrained and his hand better make any action he takes appear to be unaffected by the inference that you have values.

[rmnka447]

Pass. We have a mild ♦ fit, but no guarantee of a ♠ fit.

Partner has overcalled, not doubled as might be done with a "strong" overcall. You might pay if partner has one of those rare hands where a normal overcall bid was made with strong overcall values.

But normally, partner is making a normal overcall and they rate to have the majority of points. If responder is preempting then opener likely has a much better than average hand. Also, with a ♥ void, partner is marked with some ♥ length making a big ♠ fit less likely.

Of course, responder could be making a tactical bid rather than a pure preempt, in which case, you could be stepping into a hornet's nest.

[gszes]

there just isn't much here. It seems almost impossible that we might make anything so any decision we make now is essentially a sac. Hopefully P will be able to read us for short hearts and properly identify our weakness before deciding what to do over 4h.

[ggwhiz]

mikeh, on 2018-August-20, 13:54, said:

I am not sure if you meant 'verboten' literally but, even if you didn't, some might (mis-)read it that way.

To be clear: taking one's time to decide what to bid here is not an infraction. You can take as much time as you need.

All true and in the context of an I/A forum I just wished to highlight the kind of undeserved dilemma that you may hand to your partner.

[Cyberyeti]

gszes, on 2018-August-20, 17:34, said:

there just isn't much here. It seems almost impossible that we might make anything so any decision we make now is essentially a sac. Hopefully P will be able to read us for short hearts and properly identify our weakness before deciding what to do over 4h.

By no means impossible it's our hand (give partner Ax, xxxx, AKQxxxx, void where they have to lead a trump to stop the overtrick) but too much risk to bid now.

[nullve]

Tramticket, on 2018-August-20, 03:43, said:

It makes more difference to know what opps play. Does 1♥ promise a four or five-card suit?

Partner's overcall style could also make a difference.

My partners would never overcall 2♦ without 6+ D or 4+ C in this position, so I expect at least 19 total trumps* on average. If there are as many as 20, then LoTT suggests bidding. If there are only 19, then hopefully the void is worth an extra total trick. (Voids tend to make total tricks > total trumps.)

* Our trump suit will be either spades, clubs or diamonds, depending on partner's hand. As eagles123 said, 4♠ implies diamond support, so partner will correct to 5♣ or 5♦ without spade support.

EDIT, 22 August: 'at least 19 total trumps on average' may be too optimistic if 1♥ or 4♥ is frequently bid with only 4 H.

[maartenxq]

eagles123, on 2018-August-20, 03:25, said:

i choose 4S this surely has to show diamonds as well

I bid 4 ♠ for the same reason. If red against green its difficult. Maybe pass is the wiser option then.

Maarten Baltussen

[msjennifer]

An easy PASS for me.Partners overcall may be based on xx-xx-AKQxxx-Kxx

[kontoleon]

I may dable here if double is take out. If double was penalty 4s is partener agreement and in fact if partener had enough strong enough befence he may no it penalty

[marklaf]

Of course your RHO opponent should have used the stop card--to give you time to think. In general I leave such auctions alone--Yes 4 spades could work--but it may not.
]

[miamijd]

I would pass, but if I were going to make a call, a responsive X is the only real choice. That keeps 4S, 5C, 5D, and even 4HX (if partner has unexpected H strength) all in play. I just think I'm a King short for that (I might try it with Qxx of diamonds rather than xxx).

Cheers,
Mike