[Cyberyeti]

The only alertable openers in the precision I play are 1♣ (16+) and 2♦ (34)15 or 4405, 1♦ is 4+ cards but marginally alertable because it may contain longer clubs.

The longest sequence of artificial "precision" bids I can get is 3 bids (compare simple things like kokish where you get 4).

Yes if people are playing relay precision or full asking bids, you may want to ban that, but my version of Acol is way more complicated than my version of precision.

[heart76]

euclidz, on 2018-August-24, 08:45, said:

My Club plays just one evening a week unchanged for the past 60 years. We seek and encourage new members from the broadest demographic possible and specifically play of an evening (at our cost because we pay for room hire which we could have free during the day) to be available to younger (working/student) members The reason we might want to ban artificial systems is because other clubs in our area have lost members because they will not play against such systems not because they can't compete against them but because the game slows to a snails pace when every call is alerted and explained; it's disruptive and irritating. You (all) will know that there are different 'clubs' within BBO one of which is the Acol Club and the rules there are that anyone playing there must play Acol. And, you will also know that within the Acol system and within the Acol Club there are many artificial bids (conventions). It's not about old people fixed in their ways its about striking a balance between enjoying competition and giving up you life to learning every system there is.

I think you should reconsider your point of view. You do not actually encourage any young or dynamic or bright bridge player to play at your club. You are not actually trying to achieve any balance.
Doesn't your bridge federation have rules about what's allowed or disallowed in each type of event?
And I do really believe that the matter is not the pace nor the alerts. The matter is that one needs defense over multiple type of new systems, which is a mental effort that many don't want to spend. This causes underbidding, overbidding, etc. In one word, losing.
If the club board is scared about old members leaving, I'm afraid your dilemma is between recreation and serious playing.
In the end, a serious partnership chooses their system according to their style, preferences, what's simpler for them. It's a degree of freedom.

[nekthen]

euclidz, on 2018-August-24, 08:45, said:

the game slows to a snails pace when every call is alerted and explained; it's disruptive and irritating.

When playing against any artificial system, resist the urge to ask what an alert means. You will be amazed how often opps do not know the answer! If you have no intention of bidding do not ask, ever. If you are confused at the end of the auction, use your right to ask about the bidding. Much faster.

Also, how often do you need to ask the meaning of a 1 club bid?

[hrothgar]

euclidz, on 2018-August-23, 16:00, said:

I'd be very interested to know why you believe that would achieve the same end?

Because the attitude that you are expressing - "Lets simply things by removing anything that is unfamiliar to me" - is one that I associate with the elderly.

Moreover, in my experience, organizations that adopt these sorts of policies are pretty much just treading water, waiting to die.

[Caitlynne]

Well, your club certainly is free to make whatever membership rule it might like, but banning systems by name or label is difficult thing to do.

Precision is a strong, artificial, and forcing 1C system. There are many others of these - Blue Club, Schenken Club, Ultimate Club, and LORI Club are among the several that I am familiar with.

But is it only the strong variety among artificial club systems that your club membership finds so irritating? What about the not strong and yet still forcing varieties such as, but certainly not limited to, the Polish Club and Roman Club systems?

What if the artificial club system is neither strong nor forcing? There are many such systems. I play such a system. 1C shows either 4+ clubs and a non-balanced hand or a balanced hand that other might have opened 1NT when holding it.

In fact, any "natural" approach forcing system in which the 1C opening bid may be made on as few as two clubs - e.g., 2/1 playing 5 card majors and 4+ diamonds - would be an artificial 1C system if the ACBL did not go out of its way to define a 1C bid as natural if. when it may be opened with only a 2 card club holding, the hand features exactly four spades, exactly four hearts, and exactly three diamonds. Regardless, certainly there is nothing innately natural about bidding 1C on a 2 card holding.

Club systems will continue to exist and can be expected to remain popular. That is a reality that your club needs to grapple with.

[themarc]

I have been playing Precision since it was popularized in America by Goren in the 1970's. I remember first playing it in the officer's club and having some of the elder officer's wives having conniptions over our club and diamond bids. But as has been pointed out by others, it is inherently a natural system except for the club and diamond bids, and not one that anyone should be afraid to compete against. At my current club which by the way is for the most part well over 70, many of the club members take great delight in explaining to us what our club and diamond bids mean when we alert them. (I know this is not really legal, but we try to encourage members to have fun as well as compete). Some of the more advanced Precision systems like Super Precision and Transfer Precision do have many more artificial bids, but the way to deal with this is to ban some of those exotic bid types, that others have pointed out can be just as prominent in so-called natural systems, and not throw out a great system that has significant advantages over most.

[LBengtsson]

As a Swede I come to your club to play. I play Swedish Club with my regular partner. You tell me to go away. I tell you that you cannot discriminate my race. But it's not my race it's your system, you advice. So you tell players from China who play Precision to go away also? Not a good bridge club!

[nullve]

Which system do SAYC players hate the most? Precision (5c majors, not-so-weak NT) or Acol (4c majors, weak NT)?

[mikestar13]

If the desire is honestly to avoid delays caused by alerting, why not provide a system card which all pairs must play and specify the alert procedure not be used (if such a thing is legal in the EBU).

[shintaro]

DozyDom, on 2018-August-24, 09:18, said:

The Acol Club has no such restriction. I don't know where you've heard that.

You can check their FAQs if you want:
http://www.acolbridgeclub.com/faqs

rofl I think you are on the wrong foot here.

the Acol Club referred to is the online bridge club

[Cyberyeti]

nekthen, on 2018-August-24, 10:48, said:

When playing against any artificial system, resist the urge to ask what an alert means. You will be amazed how often opps do not know the answer! If you have no intention of bidding do not ask, ever. If you are confused at the end of the auction, use your right to ask about the bidding. Much faster.

Also, how often do you need to ask the meaning of a 1 club bid?

Well if what you need to bid over a strong club is 13 cards, but if it's a polish/swedish club (or possibly some strong diamond's 1♣) you need a decent hand, then every time.

The point about the 1♣ opener and asking bids or relays is that usually these are unopposed auctions when playing Euclidz type opps, so they should be instructed if not intending to bid to just ask for a review of the auction with explanations at the end.

[RD350LC]

DozyDom, on 2018-August-24, 09:13, said:

"Pretty much all artificial bids" is not a great description.

1!C is an artificial opening; most players playing it will have 1-2 artificial bids in response (showing negative responses) and all others natural. 1!D will often be quite ambiguous in a precision setting, and won't always promise a diamond suit; responses to it are usually natural.
2!D in a precision setting will often show short diamonds, and will have natural responses.
That's 3 artificial bids, only one of which is ambiguous with regards to hand type. Only 1!C needs any kind of artifical defence, and I say"needs" in a very loose sense.

By contrast, Benji Acol (which I'm guessing many players at your club play, and none would object to) uses 2C and 2D both as ambiguous, strong bids, with a forced relay in response. Why are they so hung up about a system where there's only one such strong artificial bid? Others will play a multi 2D, perhaps with multiple strong options - a far more ambiguous and artificial convention than anything in standard precision, and much much harder to defend against.

I think the main problem that your club members have with precision is probably that they don't play against it often, and is nothing to do with it being "highly artificial".



I should also point out that, yes, the EBU does preclude some artificiality, but it's far more kind than you seem to think it is. Very few common systems are restricted by the EBU. Moscito is the most well-known system I can think of that's not allowed at Level 4 - it uses every 1-level bid for an artificial purpose.

I agree with this statement. The only real artificial bids with standard Precision are the 1 ♣ opening bid, the 1 ♦ response, and (if played, but recommended) the 2♦
opening bid.
The 2 ♣ opening bid is not what non-Precision players are used to, but it is still a natural bid, showing clubs.
Some Precision players will open 1 ♦ with only a doubleton, but I don't like that. If it is not strong enough to open a Precision 1 NT bid, and with 3244 distribution (you open 2 ♦ with 4144, and others can be opened 1 of a suit), I would pass with 12- hcp.

BTW, this is the system recommended by Charles Goren in his book on Precision.

[shintaro]

DozyDom, on 2018-August-24, 09:18, said:

The Acol Club has no such restriction. I don't know where you've heard that.

You can check their FAQs if you want:
http://www.acolbridgeclub.com/faqs

rofl i think what is referred to is the Acol Club here on BBO

[DozyDom]

shintaro, on 2018-August-25, 13:17, said:

rofl i think what is referred to is the Acol Club here on BBO

Ha! I see, I see. More fool me.

[barmar]

hrothgar, on 2018-August-23, 15:05, said:

You could probably achieve the same end by banning everyone under the age of 50...

As a statistician you should realize how silly this suggestion is.

It might be true that the majority of people who play exotic systems are young, but it's probably not true that the majority of young players play exotic systems.

To put it in terms I'm sure will resonate, it's like banning all Muslims to protect against Islamic terrorists.

[barmar]

Caitlynne, on 2018-August-24, 10:56, said:

Well, your club certainly is free to make whatever membership rule it might like, but banning systems by name or label is difficult thing to do.

Precision is a strong, artificial, and forcing 1C system. There are many others of these - Blue Club, Schenken Club, Ultimate Club, and LORI Club are among the several that I am familiar with.

But is it only the strong variety among artificial club systems that your club membership finds so irritating? What about the not strong and yet still forcing varieties such as, but certainly not limited to, the Polish Club and Roman Club systems?

What if the artificial club system is neither strong nor forcing? There are many such systems. I play such a system. 1C shows either 4+ clubs and a non-balanced hand or a balanced hand that other might have opened 1NT when holding it.

I think they made it clear that they're just trying to avoid systems with lots of alerting, not any particular system meaning.

[Cyberyeti]

barmar, on 2018-August-25, 18:00, said:

I think they made it clear that they're just trying to avoid systems with lots of alerting, not any particular system meaning.

T-Walsh will be one of the first things up against the wall

[blackshoe]

Alerts are by regulation. Is a club in England required to abide by EBU regulations? No? Then if alerts are the problem, just ban alerts.

[Cyberyeti]

blackshoe, on 2018-September-07, 14:01, said:

Alerts are by regulation. Is a club in England required to abide by EBU regulations? No? Then if alerts are the problem, just ban alerts.

I assume you're joking, but if this happened one or both of two things would occur:

Some idiot like me would devise a system where nothing meant what it looked like.

People would get wise to this and ask the meaning of every bid

[blackshoe]

And then you have a different problem. Law of Unintended Consequences?