[FelicityR]

As a former Acol player now playing a 2/1-based system, how relevant are Soloway strong jump shifts (good suit and 17+) in a 2/1 system? With Acol a strong jump shift, for example, 1♠ - 3♣, was an immediate game force. However, with 2/1 you do not need to lose a level of bidding as a 2♣ response (over a 1♠ opening) would suffice to create a game-forcing auction.

I do realise many players now use a jump shift to show a weaker hand over an opening bid as this situation crops up far more frequently than having a strong hand opposite an opening bid.

The reason I ask this is that I was playing with the robots recently and they recognise the Soloway strong jump shift, but to me it just seems a waste of space. Is there any reason to have a strong jump shift as part of the 2/1 system? I'll be interested what other players have to say, whether they use it, and the types of hand that they would recommend for its use. As you can probably tell I am a bit of a newbie to the 2/1 system.

[Stephen Tu]

They are still useful if you happen to be dealt a hand for them for 1x-2y auctions. Because of the space consumption, and the multitude of ways to force after a 2/1, they are less useful for 1x-3y auctions, thus most 2/1 players use the jump shifts for other purposes, most frequently natural invitational or as some sort of raise.

[steve2005]

Strong jump shifts work.
The biggest problem is frequency, they dont come up often so people want to use something else for that bid which will be more useful.
Also there is less of a need for SJS playing 2/1 but they do still help.

[ahydra]

WJS is useful, particularly in the majors as you then get the inference that e.g. 1x-1M; 2y-2M is constructive, which in turn can make a 3M jump rebid GF (which copes with the single-suited SJS-type hands). Fit jumps are another popular alternative, very useful in competition to find double fits and in slam auctions to find sources of tricks.

In 2/1 playing 1M-3m as NAT INV, 6 cards, copes with some of the holes formed by the wide-ranging 1NT response. If you'd rather play these as something else e.g. Bergen, you can play "2/1 GF except suit rebid" where things like 1M-2C; 2x-3C are no longer GF, just INV.

ahydra

[Flem72]

Recovering responder's strong jump shift is an excellent, and often overlooked, reason to play XYZ.

[y66]

Just looked at a few convention cards from the 2018 USBC. Click on a team then a pair of interest.

Lee-Rosenberg

1C-2D = 5(+) spades, 4(+) hearts, inv
1m-2H = 5(+) spades, 4(+) hearts, 5-9 HCP
1m-2S = artificial limit raise
1D-3C = 6(+) inv
1H-2S = 6(+) less than inv
1M-3C = 6(+) inv
1M-3D = artificial limit raise

Hurd-Wooldridge

1C-2S=unspecified mini splinter (6-9) 6+C
1M-jump-new-suit = inv

Fireman-Wolpert

1m-2H = 11-12 bal
1m-2S = weak
1M-3lower = 6(+) inv

Bramley-Woolsey

WJS in comp and not in comp
1D-2S = 5 spades, 4-5 hearts

Boyd-Robinson

1m-2H = 3-way: invites 3N OR strong jumpshift in H OR mixed 7-9 HCP raise. 2S and 2N ask.
1m-2S = SJS I think
1M-3C = mixed raise
1M-3D = 6(+) inv

That's a small sample but illustrative of OP's point.

[barmar]

I prefer SJS. A SJS should be significantly stronger than a game force, the minimum should be something like 17 or 18 HCP. So it forces to game, and immediatley suggests a possibility of slam. So the bidding space wasted isn't as serious as it seems, since you should generally be safe at the 5 level if you're still trying to figure out where you belong.

I agree with the idea of using it only with 1x-2y, although I don't have that agreement with all partners, just to keep things simpler.

[pescetom]

barmar, on 2018-June-24, 14:17, said:

I prefer SJS. A SJS should be significantly stronger than a game force, the minimum should be something like 17 or 18 HCP. So it forces to game, and immediatley suggests a possibility of slam. So the bidding space wasted isn't as serious as it seems, since you should generally be safe at the 5 level if you're still trying to figure out where you belong.

I agree with the idea of using it only with 1x-2y, although I don't have that agreement with all partners, just to keep things simpler.

I am perplexed by the idea of a SJS within 2/1, I agree with Felicity that it is a waste of space and a violation of the spirit of the system.
if I can already force to game with the first response then what difficulty do I have to suggest slam later on, or simply take matters into my own hands?
As others have pointed out, WJS not only fits the system better but covers some problems raised by overloaded and forcing 1NT.
I can see that playing all ascending 1x-2y as weak may not be an optimal choice at expert level, but there are much worse ways to keep things simpler, IMO.

[smerriman]

pescetom, on 2018-June-24, 15:22, said:

I am perplexed by the idea of a SJS within 2/1, I agree with Felicity that it is a waste of space and a violation of the spirit of the system.
if I can already force to game with the first response then what difficulty do I have to suggest slam later on, or simply take matters into my own hands?

The purpose of SJS is to help with the types of hands where a normal 2/1 auction simply won't get you to the right spot. If you have a type of hand where a normal 2/1 auction would work, then you shouldn't be bidding a SJS.

Eg, if you have an SJS with strong spades, how do you "force to game with the first response"? If you bid an unnatural forcing 2/1 instead of 1♠, then it's going to take you a while to agree upon spades, after which you may have used up too much bidding room. (And the same applies if you start with 1♠).

[Winstonm]

FelicityR, on 2018-June-22, 15:06, said:

As a former Acol player now playing a 2/1-based system, how relevant are Soloway strong jump shifts (good suit and 17+) in a 2/1 system? With Acol a strong jump shift, for example, 1♠ - 3♣, was an immediate game force. However, with 2/1 you do not need to lose a level of bidding as a 2♣ response (over a 1♠ opening) would suffice to create a game-forcing auction.

I do realise many players now use a jump shift to show a weaker hand over an opening bid as this situation crops up far more frequently than having a strong hand opposite an opening bid.

The reason I ask this is that I was playing with the robots recently and they recognise the Soloway strong jump shift, but to me it just seems a waste of space. Is there any reason to have a strong jump shift as part of the 2/1 system? I'll be interested what other players have to say, whether they use it, and the types of hand that they would recommend for its use. As you can probably tell I am a bit of a newbie to the 2/1 system.

IMO, the reasons the jump in the bidding is to create what used to be called "a picture bid". Although 2/1 can create forcing sequences, what are you going to do after a 1H opening from partner and you holding: AKJ108x, xx, Axx, Axx? So you bid 1S and partner bids 2 whatever - can you really get your message across at this point?

The straightforward idea is to make your slam try and show your great suit in a single bid.

[FelicityR]

As usual thank you for all your replies. They make interesting reading.

[P_Marlowe]

Goldway Jumpshifts (?!) combine WJS / SJS, basically the jump is a xfer.
I was not able to find a description with a quick Google search, but knowing SJS
and WJS, it should be simple to come up with a reasonable response set.

I liked SJS, but around here WJS are more common, sowe changed

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ahydra]

Flem72, on 2018-June-23, 07:13, said:

Recovering responder's strong jump shift is an excellent, and often overlooked, reason to play XYZ.

Indeed, in one of my partnerships we discovered this by accident after noting that after e.g. 1C (NAT or weak NT) - 1H (transfer Walsh); 1NT (weak NT without 3 spades) we had 2H (re-xfer)-2S-3S and 2C (XYZ)-2D-2S both supposedly showing INV hands with six+ spades. So we defined the former as SI instead.

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

You can add to the frequency by doing what we do.

1♦-2♠ is either the full blown old style jump really big hand and suit or at least ♠KJ10xx, ♦Qxxx and enough to force to game, the second type being much more common it's assumed to be the latter unless your next bid is to repeat spades or bid NT.

We only play one conventional bid over this (we play weak NT so don't need 2N for that), 2N denies a holding of stiff Q or xx or better in responder's jump shift suit, anything higher promises that which is useful in that if partner rebids 3♠ rather than 3N he is showing a one suiter happy to play in a slam opposite a small singleton. It also tells responder if he has the fit-jump type that the ace is probably the only card that matters.

[steve2005]

pescetom, on 2018-June-24, 15:22, said:

I am perplexed by the idea of a SJS within 2/1, I agree with Felicity that it is a waste of space and a violation of the spirit of the system.

I have seen some very reputable experts advocate 1♥-2♠ as strong in 2/1.
Before I learned 2/1 I played SJS and found SJS very useful for finding slams and finding out slam is poor below game. This is very useful. But it just doesn't come up enough and playing 2/1 you almost never miss SJS.

[spotlight7]

Soloway SJS tend to show specific hand types.

JS and rebid the suit is a solid suit(defined as AKQxxxx or better according to taste)

5332 and 6322 NT types JS and rebid NT showing about 15+-18ish

JS and new suit rebid shows support for openers suit


The example hand I would bid 2C and 3C later GF

[HardVector]

FelicityR, on 2018-June-22, 15:06, said:

As a former Acol player now playing a 2/1-based system, how relevant are Soloway strong jump shifts (good suit and 17+) in a 2/1 system? With Acol a strong jump shift, for example, 1♠ - 3♣, was an immediate game force. However, with 2/1 you do not need to lose a level of bidding as a 2♣ response (over a 1♠ opening) would suffice to create a game-forcing auction.

I do realise many players now use a jump shift to show a weaker hand over an opening bid as this situation crops up far more frequently than having a strong hand opposite an opening bid.

The reason I ask this is that I was playing with the robots recently and they recognise the Soloway strong jump shift, but to me it just seems a waste of space. Is there any reason to have a strong jump shift as part of the 2/1 system? I'll be interested what other players have to say, whether they use it, and the types of hand that they would recommend for its use. As you can probably tell I am a bit of a newbie to the 2/1 system.

They are useful in finding good slams. You therefore need a hand that is interested in a minor suit slam if you jump/shift to 3 of a minor. These are rather rare, since in matchpoints, you are really looking for 6nt. For that reason, I've personally replaced the 3 level jump shifts with something more useful while retaining the 2 level jumps as strong 6+ card suits allowing a good exploration and easily stopping in game if the cards are wrong.

[steve2005]

pescetom, on 2018-June-24, 15:22, said:

I am perplexed by the idea of a SJS within 2/1, I agree with Felicity that it is a waste of space and a violation of the spirit of the system.

Often in 2/1 you have difficulty showing extra values. That said, find better ways in 2/1 to show extra values. SJS while may solve a problem they are so few using jump for anything else has to be an improvement.

[smerriman]

This poll and discussion on bridgewinners is interesting reading (including quite a few comments suggesting WJS are worse).

[msjennifer]

Depending upon partners methods one can play innumerable variations of SJF or WJS.While kibitzing,I witnessed a very famous player playing Standard using a 2D bid over a 1Club opening as a multi similar to a multi 2d opening bid.
1C-P-2D Shows a weak opener in one of the majors OR a well defined NT type hand.