[FelicityR]

Playing rubber bridge, strong NT (15-17) and 5 card majors - though I suppose it can also apply to 4 card majors (Acol) too - I had a friendly disagreement with my husband about his choice of opening bid.

At love all, in the first hand of the rubber, he held

---

He opened 1♠, whereas I said it would have been better to open 1♦. Do you agree?

Which made me think further: if he held a 5332 hand with a very poor 5 card major and a very good 3 card minor, is it all feasible to open a 3 card minor in preference to a 5 card major. A hand such as

---

And subsequently at what point does the suit quality of the major suit make it biddable, let's say JTxxx or Qxxxx or do players always bid 5 card majors irrespective of the quality in preference to 3 or 4 card minors?

[ggwhiz]

I will upgrade some very good 4-card majors to open on if my choice is 1m on xxx but never downgrade a 5 bagger like this.

Games are where the money is and on this, it's not 11 tricks in diamonds. It's spades or notrump and if partner responds 2 of something other than diamonds I can bid 2nt often blowing of a spade attack if partner should raise or get to spades when it's right. My partner is not shy about choosing 3nt instead of 4♠ with a 5-3 fit and in fact makes very good decisions.

Seems like opening 1♦ is trying to win a partscore or a small plus on defense, a long term losing strategy.

[Tramticket]

I just open 1♠ (or possibly 1NT if in range - you did mention Acol).

It might win in all sorts of ways. Sometimes you open 1♠, finish in 3NT and Opps fail to find the killing spade lead.

[Stephen Tu]

If you don't open 1S basically you give up all your 5-3 fits forever. This is not at all like declining to open 7432 in a 4 cd M system where 4cdM is expected to be preferred over 4cdm; partner is still going to bid their 4cdM so if you have 4-4 fit you still tend to find it. This is too big a loss; there are hands where it's critical to be in 4S because the opps can run clubs/hearts eventually while you need to score your length tricks in spades for 9 in NT. If partner's 3 cd spades are weak, you'll lose a couple trump tricks but then get everything else. And in competitive deals, it's just super important to be able to outbid opp's hearts at 2S for 8 tricks when you can; also opening 1S can shut them out completely after 1s-p-2s-all pass.

The adjustments to make would be to perhaps pass allegedly forcing NT responses when min (unless you are systemically using F1nt on some subset of GF hands), play 3nt if partner offers after showing 3 cd fit, and be conservative cooperating with game/slam tries partner make since your trumps are poor. But treating it like a 4 cd suit is going too far.

[P_Marlowe]

1S.

I rather upgrade, than go with 1D.

with kind regards
Marlowe

[TylerE]

1♠ on all days ending in 'y', and twice on Sundays.

[PhilG007]

FelicityR, on 2018-May-25, 07:14, said:

Playing rubber bridge, strong NT (15-17) and 5 card majors - though I suppose it can also apply to 4 card majors (Acol) too - I had a friendly disagreement with my husband about his choice of opening bid.

At love all, in the first hand of the rubber, he held

---

He opened 1♠, whereas I said it would have been better to open 1♦. Do you agree?

Which made me think further: if he held a 5332 hand with a very poor 5 card major and a very good 3 card minor, is it all feasible to open a 3 card minor in preference to a 5 card major. A hand such as

---

And subsequently at what point does the suit quality of the major suit make it biddable, let's say JTxxx or Qxxxx or do players always bid 5 card majors irrespective of the quality in preference to 3 or 4 card minors?

In both cases I would open 1 spade. Since the trump suit is the most powerful,the more cards you hold in it the better
So as an example holding ♠AKQJ ♥109543 ♦AJ ♣83 I would open 1♥ the longer suit NOT
1♠ because of all the pretty pictures(!)

[neilkaz]

1♠ WTP and LOL

[Winstonm]

Al Roth would probably have passed, but I'm not that hardcore: I open 1S.

[ahydra]

Open 1S. As Stephen Tu says, you need to find 5-3 fits, or indeed any major fit ASAP.

In the first two seats it's also important to describe your shape accurately in case partner has a rock crusher and starts looking for slam. I'm reminded of that wonderful line from S J Simon "He has shown 5 clubs, 4 spades, 3 hearts and a singleton diamond. That he holds nothing of the sort [4=3=3=3] is, perhaps, unfortunate."

ahydra

[dsLawsd]

1 Spade at rubber bridge because there are at least two ways to win at this form. With minimum hands getting a part score figures to be quite valuable. With enough for game one partner or the other might be able to offer a choice of games including 3 NT.

At other forms of scoring I might pass or bid 1 diamond; 1 NT 11-14.
I hate being at 4 Spades down 1 with marginal values. And the state of the game can influence the choice too.
But I would not be upset if my partner bid 1 Spade- it just isn't worth the bother when it is not a clear system violation.

[nekthen]

Playing your methods always open 1♠

Suppose it goes 1♦ p 2♣ p? What is your rebid? It has to be 2N which may have by passed a 9 card spade fit

A hand like this is shown in every bridge primer with the instruction to open 1♠

[NickRW]

1st hand 1♠. 2nd hand the same, but I could take a view and pass. 1♦ doesn't enter into my thinking. Wishing we were playing weak NT does

[maartenxq]

FelicityR, on 2018-May-25, 07:14, said:

Playing rubber bridge, strong NT (15-17) and 5 card majors - though I suppose it can also apply to 4 card majors (Acol) too - I had a friendly disagreement with my husband about his choice of opening bid.

If I were not your husband I would have a more unfriendly disagreement with you in disputing my choice of opening bids.

Did you have
xx Kx Kxx Jxxxx

and the bidding 1 Spade - 1 no trump
2 Diamonds - 2 spades?

Maarten Baltussen

[aawk]

Using the LTC to value the strength of your hand the first deal has 7 LTC and 1♠ is your openings bid. Having a very bad 5 card I would not mind if you started with 1♦ it's your choice to value your hand and as partner you should respect that.

The second deal with a 5xxx pattern and 9 LTC is a perfect hand to open 1♣ (or 1♦ depending on your agreements for a minor openings bid). Giving up a possible 5-3 fit in a major holding 8-9 LTC will lead most likely to a nt contract or a part score in partners (long) suit which has a better chance than a contract in ♠.

[sfi]

Ggwhiz is spot on in his reasoning. Using the opening bid to direct partner to the location of your values in defence is one consideration in bidding, but it is secondary to constructive auctions when game or slam is a possibility. When you open you have a better than even chance of playing the hand, so showing the location of your values will not help partner much at this point, and not at all during the play if your side declares.

The concept of values before shape lost out to shape before values decades ago, because fits are what lets you do well in constructive auctions and win competitive ones. You have a better argument for opening 1D if partner is a passed hand though. Now the right lead on defence is relatively more likely and game is less so.

[pitbull]

God didn't give me a five card major only to have me open one diamond.

[FelicityR]

Thank you for all your replies. Looks like I owe my husband an apology. We arrived in a 4♠ contract on a 5-3 fit going down one, when the same nine tricks are available in no-trumps. I am perhaps 'resulting' on this one hand but I have learnt a valuable lesson here.

[msjennifer]

In good old times the requirements to open a four card major suit were at least Q10xx and any five card suit was biddable.In modern days the restrictions no more are adhered to.A five card major must never be suppressed and that is followed by almost all the system when opening a normal 11/14 hand.So the hand has to be opened 1S and not 1D .The theory of a convenient rebid has to be kept in mind always.The hands are almost borderline openers and there is the convenient rebid of 2D available in the first hand.As regards the second example also the opening bid is 1S.One has to deviate sometimes in a hand of No trump pattern.A hand like say S-AKQx-H-AKx D-xxxC-xxx is hard to describe if you open 1C or 1NT either of which may go PPP and go down when opponents can not make anything..AN expert ,Ina vulnerable against nonvul,opened 1NT holding xx, AKxx-AKJx-xxx .It went all pass.Result was three down for minus 300 when opponents double dummy could have made 3S only that is 140 .He deservedly got a zero.On other tables it was opened 1D and opponents played in 2S.In short,the vulnerability,and other factors have to be kept n mind in opening a hand particulately in 1St and to some extent 2nd seat.

[PhilG007]

FelicityR, on 2018-May-26, 18:27, said:

Thank you for all your replies. Looks like I owe my husband an apology. We arrived in a 4♠ contract on a 5-3 fit going down one, when the same nine tricks are available in no-trumps. I am perhaps 'resulting' on this one hand but I have learnt a valuable lesson here.

4 of a major or 3NT? Often a difficult decision and more often than not a decision to reach correctly.
And MPs or IMPs can depend on the right choice. Is there any guidelines which can help?