[Shugart23]

If opponents open a short club or diamond, can I make absolutely ANY bid with absolutely ANY meaning, as long as partner alerts and properly explains our agreement ?

[steve2005]

Answer depends on jurisdiction.
ACBL
1C if only short when 4=4=3=2 it is still considered natural.
Under GCC rules you can use any defense you want against artificial bids, assigning any meaning to any bid.
You probably aren;t allowed to do something completely destructive like bid 1S on any shape 0-9 points, but for all intensive purposes anything goes.
In November the rules will be changing. Should be more liberal rules but will depend on which chart applies to your event.

[helene_t]

In some countries (e.g. Sweden) there are no restrictions on overcalls, regardless of whether the opening was natural, seminatural or artificial.

In the Netherlands, a 1m opening that can be as short as two cards, is considered artificial which means that anything goes.

[PrecisionL]

steve2005 said:

Answer depends on jurisdiction.
ACBL
1C if only short when 4=4=3=2 it is still considered natural.
Under GCC rules you can use any defense you want against artificial bids, assigning any meaning to any bid.
You probably aren;t allowed to do something completely destructive like bid 1S on any shape 0-9 points, but for all intensive purposes anything goes.
In November the rules will be changing. Should be more liberal rules but will depend on which chart applies to your event.

No, you may not use Suction, Hello, Don't, or Crash or other non-destructive defenses over the opponent's opening bid of 1♣ which may be as short as 2 in ACBLand unless 1♣ is forcing and/or conventional (less than 2-cards or may have 4♦).

Details at this web page: http://www.acbl.org/...6-opening-bids/

[blackshoe]

It is conventional if it can have 2 clubs in a distribution other than 4=4=3=2.

[Shugart23]

blackshoe, on 2018-May-15, 22:04, said:

It is conventional if it can have 2 clubs in a distribution other than 4=4=3=2.

Thanks.....to summarize:


1D -could be short.....anything goes

1C - could be short....I need to ask opener's partner "how short ?" and when they say "as few as 2 ", I need to ask " with exactly 2 Clubs, does that also promise both 4 card Majors ?" If no, then anything goes.....

[helene_t]

Shugart23, on 2018-May-16, 04:33, said:

Thanks.....to summarize:


1D -could be short.....anything goes

1C - could be short....I need to ask opener's partner "how short ?" and when they say "as few as 2 ", I need to ask " with exactly 2 Clubs, does that also promise both 4 card Majors ?" If no, then anything goes.....

Most club players in UK, NZ and NL who play this system don't even realize that there is the inference that it will have 4-4 in the majors if short.

So unless American club players are more system aware ( ) this doesn't seem practical.

But I guess that's your point.

[Shugart23]

helene_t, on 2018-May-17, 16:27, said:

Most club players in UK, NZ and NL who play this system don't even realize that there is the inference that it will have 4-4 in the majors if short.

So unless American club players are more system aware ( ) this doesn't seem practical.

But I guess that's your point.

kind of......They open 1C and announce it could be short and apparently ACBL wants to put the onus on me to find out if it a 'natural 'bid (restricted to 4432) or artificial....I think I may not bother asking and just assume the 1C open is artificial and let them call the director on me if I make an illegal bid.

Although, perhaps a better way for me to ask might be " please tell me what you know about partner's hand and if/when they don't sufficiently explain it, I would be 'safe' to assume it is artificial (even if it is not) .. That at least puts the onus back on the opponents.........would be interested to hear how a director would rule.......eg...They open a short Club and don't explain it correctly and I make an apparently illegal HELLO bid under the assumption their bid is artificial

BTW....what does NL stand for ?

[barmar]

Shugart23, on 2018-May-18, 07:14, said:

Although, perhaps a better way for me to ask might be " please tell me what you know about partner's hand and if/when they don't sufficiently explain it, I would be 'safe' to assume it is artificial (even if it is not) .. That at least puts the onus back on the opponents.........would be interested to hear how a director would rule.......eg...They open a short Club and don't explain it correctly and I make an apparently illegal HELLO bid under the assumption their bid is artificial

You could simply ask "Under what conditions do you open a short club?" Most likely they'll say something like "When we don't have a 5-card major or 4-card diamonds", which is essentially the same as saying "When our shape is exactly 4=4=3=2", and hence is considered natural in ACBL.

But if they say something like "when we don't have at least 5 cards in some other suit" then it's artificial.

Quote

BTW....what does NL stand for ?

The Netherlands.

[sanst]

helene_t, on 2018-May-15, 21:07, said:

In the Netherlands, a 1m opening that can be as short as two cards, is considered artificial which means that anything goes.

Not any more. In a natural system with a five card major or even with a five card diamond opening a 1♣ opening can be made with a doubleton or even a single club and these are nowadays considered to be natural, which restricts the possibilities of an overcall.

[pescetom]

sanst, on 2018-May-19, 02:46, said:

Not any more. In a natural system with a five card major or even with a five card diamond opening a 1♣ opening can be made with a doubleton or even a single club and these are nowadays considered to be natural, which restricts the possibilities of an overcall.

Maybe it's time for the RAs to identify conventions that they consider benign and inevitable as "semi-artificial", rather than pretending against reason that they are "natural". Especially as the laws only distinguish between what is artificial and what is not. A single club or double club opening may be just semi-artificial and unworthy of special treatment, but by no stretch of the imagination is it natural.

In Italy the situation is fairly simple. There are no announcements, three card clubs and diamonds are considered natural and do not require alert, two card clubs requires alert whether or not it is only possible with 4432. But there are no limitations on overcalls anyway, except that they must be alerted if not natural.

[blackshoe]

The new (going into effect in November) System Regulations in ACBL define hand types as either "natural", "artificial", or "quasi-natural". "Artificial" is defined as "any call that is not natural or quasi-natural". There's a long list of what's "natural", including 1♣ with 4=4=3=2 shape. There are only two "quasi-natural" types. See https://docs.google....d6KVg7sjk/edit#

[Shugart23]

barmar, on 2018-May-18, 09:30, said:

You could simply ask "Under what conditions do you open a short club?" Most likely they'll say something like "When we don't have a 5-card major or 4-card diamonds", which is essentially the same as saying "When our shape is exactly 4=4=3=2", and hence is considered natural in ACBL.

But if they say something like "when we don't have at least 5 cards in some other suit" then it's artificial.

The Netherlands.

should be TN

[sanst]

Shugart23, on 2018-May-19, 10:49, said:

should be TN

.tn=Tunesia, .nl=The Netherlands

[Shugart23]

sanst, on 2018-May-19, 11:22, said:

.tn=Tunesia, .nl=The Netherlands

T is for Texas

[blackshoe]

Only if you live there.

[helene_t]

sanst, on 2018-May-19, 02:46, said:

Not any more. In a natural system with a five card major or even with a five card diamond opening a 1♣ opening can be made with a doubleton or even a single club and these are nowadays considered to be natural, which restricts the possibilities of an overcall.

Thanks.

With my regular Dutch partner I play boring club. So 1♣ is any balanced hand, 12-19 points, without a fivecard major.

Do you think that also counts as "natural" for this purpose?

[sanst]

helene_t, on 2018-May-20, 16:09, said:

Thanks.

With my regular Dutch partner I play boring club. So 1♣ is any balanced hand, 12-19 points, without a fivecard major.

Do you think that also counts as "natural" for this purpose?

Yes. In translation the text says "A 1♣ opening bid that in an otherwise natural system can be made with a singleton (five card major or five card diamonds) or a doubleton (five card major, four card diamonds) should be considered [...] to be a natural opening bid". It's alertable, though.
Others might argue that, since boring club doesn't have a 'natural' 1NT, you might play any defense against this opening bid, but I don't see how the regulation allows that.