[otr52]

I prefer to bid 4 cl after 2 sp - invitation to slam, and if partmner has a week hand, he'll show it With 4 sp

[miamijd]

The answer depends to some extent on how strong your responses are and how strong your reverses are.

If you play weakish reverses or sub-minimum responses to 1m, then you probably want 3S an invitational. If you play standard reverses and don't respond to 1m with sub-minimums, then 3S can be a stronger GF than 4S.

If opener has 3145 or 3046 with a 17-count (or even a great 16 count) and responder has 5 spades, then unless responder is sub-minimum, you're going to want to bid game. But if responder could have a sub-minimum hand, then you need a 3S invite.

Also, if you play weakish reverses (any decent 16 will do), then you probably want 3S as an invite.

Personally, I'm down the middle on both resonding with sub-minimums and reverse strength, so I don't have a strong preference either way. As a default, I generally play 3S as a stronger GF than 4S, but if partner wants to play 3S as an invite, that's fine, too; then certainly 4H can be used to show a stronger raise than 4S.

Cheers,
Mike

[Gerardo]

What would be 2♥ (4th suit) by responder here? Should be very weak, but does it deny 5+♠?

I would take 4♥ here as splinter (must have 3 cards, as you already denied 4), and the strongest bid here.

So 3♠ and 4♠ would be NF.

[Left2Right]

Again, I offer my resource to help you practice this convention with your favorite partner and see whether and how effective your understandings are.
Try this constraint.

Also, there are two important foundation points to think about before answering the 3♠ continuation question.

1. Mr Ingberman himself did not flesh out all the continuations that can happen after opener's reverse. So it's up to us to make ours make sense.

2. Consider the following two auctions.

  a) 1♣ – 1♠
     2♦ – 2N*
     3♣ – 3♠ ...
  b) 1♣ – 1♠
     2♦ – 2♠ ...

Does it really make sense to end up at a higher level with a worse hand? In auction “a” we woodenly follow the weak relay sequence and end up at the three level. With auction ”b” we can contract our part score for less risk.

I would gently suggest the more effective Auction b approach.
♠: x ♥: Kxx ♦: KQJx ♣: AQJxx
paired with
♠: KQJxxx ♥: xx ♦: xx ♣: xxx
Auction B is the pair's last chance to reign in this horse.

If one accepts this, then a 3♠ invite makes no sense: the reverser already knows the responder's hand -- a mangy 6 or 7.

In addition, the 3♣ acceptance of the relay usually reveals the lesser reverse (16-18). So with a stronger reverse (19-21), opener simply bids game.

♠: A x ♥: x ♦: KQJx ♣: AQJxx
paired with
♠: KQJxxx ♥: xx ♦: xx ♣: xxx

Cheers.

[apollo1201]

Gerardo, on 2018-May-04, 11:39, said:

What would be 2♥ (4th suit) by responder here? Should be very weak, but does it deny 5+♠?

I would take 4♥ here as splinter (must have 3 cards, as you already denied 4), and the strongest bid here.

So 3♠ and 4♠ would be NF.

I’d say not necessarily very weak. On the contrary.

It is GF (7+ or 9+ depending how high or low you reverse) w/o stop in the 4th suit or stronger than a direct 3NT (13 or more). Denies a natural more descriptive bid like 2S or a good fit for openers’ suits.

With 7-9 (and stopper) you bid 2NT then 3, with 10-12 you bid it directly.

[smerriman]

apollo1201, on 2018-May-04, 14:20, said:

I’d say not necessarily very weak. On the contrary.

It is GF

Ingberman specifically defines 2♥ in this sequence as the weakest bid you can make.

Thanks all for the replies - for this specific auction, placing weak hands with 5 spades into the 2♥ response, since that's below 2♠, makes a lot of sense; opener can still find a 3-5 major fit by bidding 2♠ next. In fact, the primer mentioned that latter part, but I didn't grasp the effect that has on the 2♠ bid.

Under that assumption, hands that would reject an invite like Stephen Tu mentioned can't exist, so spade raises would become forcing.

In other sequences where 2NT would be the negative, having an invitational spade raise sounds fine.

Of course, the best solution is just to make sure you agree something in advance, whatever that is

[Miss Happ]

Hi there. Look under the Bourke Relay convention and you will resolve your issue. Cheers

[tritonium]

Play Lebensohl and take the ambiguities out of the equation.

[apollo1201]

smerriman, on 2018-May-04, 16:33, said:

Ingberman specifically defines 2♥ in this sequence as the weakest bid you can make.

Sorry. I thought Ingberman was just the 2NT « brake » convention to try, when respondent is not sure of game if opener is min, to escape at 3-level in one of opener’s suits.
A cheap 4SF is nice but you don’t always have this available when responder bids Hs (or when opener’s 2nd suit is Hs). That is why we decided to limit 4SF for GF hands with unclear strain or level.
The fact that we play strongish reverses (17 good HCPs min unless’freakish distribution), so opener promises to bid again, then repeating responder suit is ambiguous but necessarily forcing. Under load 4SF but put more hands in the rebid suit. Not sure what gains!!😀

[msjennifer]

As per my limited knowledge of ingberman,the responder holding 5/7 HCP and a flat hand with a 4Card spade suit, having been forced to bid ,bids 2NT as a relay and opener with Just 17 /18 HCP bids 3 Clubs then it is not forcing to game.As per the convention responders first one level bid has to be the cheapest 4Card suit the responder has denied both D and H as having 4cards.As per my understanding of the convention,which does not explain what to bid with a5pointer hand holding 6carder suit,it is difficult to pass a clear cut remark.However it is said in the convention that if a bid other than 2NT or a bid of 3C by opener over the responders 2NT are not made then all other bids are game forcing,which I feel embarrassed to understand,Since the opener who could simply have passed the 2S weak bid then his raise to 3S,for reasons better known to him,is a forcing bid and in a regular partnership showing interest in a slam.A 4S bid by opener over responders 2S bid is a sign off showing no further interest having heard the 2 bids by responder.

[Vampyr]

msjennifer, on 2018-May-05, 02:14, said:

Since the opener who could simply have passed the 2S weak bid then his raise to 3S,for reasons better known to him,is a forcing bid and in a regular partnership showing interest in a slam.A 4S bid by opener over responders 2S bid is a sign off showing no further interest having heard the 2 bids by responder.

The trouble is that 2♠ is forcing.

[Gerardo]

apollo1201, on 2018-May-05, 01:48, said:

Sorry. I thought Ingberman was just the 2NT « brake » convention to try, when respondent is not sure of game if opener is min, to escape at 3-level in one of opener's suits.
A cheap 4SF is nice but you don't always have this available when responder bids Hs (or when opener's 2nd suit is Hs). That is why we decided to limit 4SF for GF hands with unclear strain or level.
The fact that we play strongish reverses (17 good HCPs min unless'freakish distribution), so opener promises to bid again, then repeating responder suit is ambiguous but necessarily forcing. Under load 4SF but put more hands in the rebid suit. Not sure what gains!!😀

The brake here is the cheaper bid between 2NT and the 4th suit.

[Stephen Tu]

Some of you posters are seriously confused about the various structures people play over reverses. Various combinations are possible, and playable, but one has to be in agreement with partner otherwise disaster will ensue. Also it's important to know what the common assumptions are, which to some extent are going to be country/region dependent. And many of the details require extensive partnership discussion.

Assume action has gone 1m-1M-2R:
Just some of the issues:
1. What does responder do with only 4cds in M and a weak hand, trying to get out in the best partial:
a) 2nt
b) cheaper of 4th suit and 2nt
AFAIK a) is "Ingberman", and b) is "Bridge World Standard", but I am not quite sure about Ingberman since I don't have a ton of definitive sources on that. Choice A gives a cheaper 4th suit artificial forcing on some auctions, but B is probably better in being able to get out in 2nt when it is right. I think B is more common.

2. is 2M forcing or NF.
Forcing is far more common. It gives max room for opener to make a descriptive rebid, rather than cramping auction on things such as 1c-1s-2h-3d-?. If 2S is forcing, which it is for most people, it can be anything from weak 4/5 HCP to VERY VERY STRONG, including game and slam forcing hands. So many posts above are talking about opener passing 2S, which is impossible unless you have an unusual agreement to play a very weak/limited 2M rebid. 2M NF caters to 2M being last making spot, but can complicate other auctions. After 2M, ambiguous strength F1, 5+M, normally at least opener's 3M/3m/2nt are NF.

3. Are you doing something special on this auction 1c-1s-2d, where 2H is so cheap? Certainly one can alter things to take advantage of the space such that weak hand 5cd spade also bids 2H, and 2S is GF, or any of a ton of different ideas (2h weak or strong, 2S+ intermediate; transfer rebids). Probably it is ideal to treat every reverse sequence individually, but that ratchets up your complexity a lot and now your ranges for auctions are different after 1c-1s-2h-2s vs. 1c-1s-2d-2s, which might lead to forgets.

4. How does responder bid with 4cdM and a NT hand of various ranges? Jump 3nt should have some upper limit and preferrably be of some narrow range so opener knows when to invite/bid 6. 2nt, often a weakness signal (if the cheap 4th suit weakness was unavailable), can include some stronger NT hands that bid on after opener shows a min reverse, since the 2nt bid is forcing. Ranges for these bids vary considerably by partnership.

5. After a 2nt weakness signal, does opener with a min reverse always bid 3c (catering to responder's weak 4-6+ blacks), or does opener rebid his minor? What does opener do with some moose that wants to find responder's potential stopper in 4th suit for 3nt? (I personally like opener's 4th suit bid to be a GF reverse looking for this stopper).

[Vampyr]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-05, 11:45, said:

2. is 2M forcing or NF.
Forcing is far more common. It gives max room for opener to make a descriptive rebid, rather than cramping auction on things such as 1c-1s-2h-3d-?. If 2S is forcing, which it is for most people, it can be anything from weak 4/5 HCP to VERY VERY STRONG, including game and slam forcing hands. So many posts above are talking about opener passing 2S, which is impossible unless you have an unusual agreement to play a very weak/limited 2M rebid. 2M NF caters to 2M being last making spot, but can complicate other auctions. After 2M, ambiguous strength F1, 5+M, normally at least opener's 3M/3m/2nt are NF.

In England, 2M NF and the 4th suit strong is popular. A preference of opener’s first suit and raise of the second suit also NF in this method. I think it is playable, but if not, it isn’t super important since reverses are fairly rare.

[wank]

non-forcing. 99 times out of 100 when opener has 3 spades he can splinter with a GF.

[wank]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-05, 11:45, said:

1. What does responder do with only 4cds in M and a weak hand, trying to get out in the best partial:
a) 2nt
b) cheaper of 4th suit and 2nt
AFAIK a) is "Ingberman", and b) is "Bridge World Standard", but I am not quite sure about Ingberman since I don't have a ton of definitive sources on that. Choice A gives a cheaper 4th suit artificial forcing on some auctions, but B is probably better in being able to get out in 2nt when it is right. I think B is more common.

B is ingberman. A is lebensohl

[nullve]

wank, on 2018-May-06, 19:37, said:

B is ingberman. A is lebensohl

Isn't a) Ingberman (= lebensohl-like use of 2N) and b) Blackout?

[Phil]

Isn't MikeH's thread on this stuff still pinned?

[smerriman]

Phil, on 2018-May-08, 02:43, said:

Isn't MikeH's thread on this stuff still pinned?

Yeah, and referred to a few times here - this particular case wasn't covered though.