[dickiegera]

NOW WHAT????

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2♠ was intended to be a game forcing raise in hearts.

Partner and I were not on same page.

What should I bid next?
I chose 3♥ and partner passed.
I was hoping West would bid 4♥ so I could bid 4NT keycard asking.

How should we have bid this?

Thank you

[masse24]

I would start with 3♠.

I will add--2♠ would, for many, be a limit raise or better. Therefore 3♥ may be passed.

[Tramticket]

 dickiegera, on 2018-February-20, 09:00, said:

Partner and I were not on same page.

If it was a pick-up partner, then just shrug and move on.

If it was a regular partner, you need to discuss, as it is a common sequence.

You can agree to play the cue-bid as forcing to game.

Personally the cue bid is "invitational or stronger" (F1) in our partnership (4-card majors / weak NT). The 3♦ bid is a trial bid and 3♥ is a sign-off. We would cue-bid here rather than bidding 3♥.

[ggwhiz]

2♠ is most commonly a limit or better for hearts and that makes 3♥ only a limit raise and passable.

4nt directly is rkc but on what suit? It's hearts in my partnership as being the suit that I supported (via the cue) but thoroughly discussed.

Otherwise you can bid 3♠ followed by 4nt but have the same problem of what the kc suit is so discuss whether the 2♠ bid guarantees hearts or not and end up blasting 6♥ if you haven't.

[rmnka447]

You're looking at a huge hand opposite partner's opening bid.

Personally, I would have started out with a descriptive and forcing 2 ♣ bid, planning on raising hearts later.

But given the actual auction where 2 ♠ shows a ♥ fit and invitational+ values, I think the next bid should be 3 ♠.

[Winstonm]

Most players I know use the immediate cue bid as "limit raise or better". However, with a real good side suit there is no rush to support hearts. As 2C would be a 1-round force, I would bid 2C and follow up with next round with either a heart raise or a secondary cue bid, depending on the auction.

If the auction continues with 3D by partner, I would bid 4H as the diamond bid does not help the hand. If partner raised clubs or rebid hearts, I would take stronger action, including a cue bid of spades.

[Cyberyeti]

 Winstonm, on 2018-February-20, 10:47, said:

Most players I know use the immediate cue bid as "limit raise or better". However, with a real good side suit there is no rush to support hearts. As 2C would be a 1-round force, I would bid 2C and follow up with next round with either a heart raise or a secondary cue bid, depending on the auction.

If the auction continues with 3D by partner, I would bid 4H as the diamond bid does not help the hand. If partner raised clubs or rebid hearts, I would take stronger action, including a cue bid of spades.

So you're going to bid your 18 count as a 13 count because the diamond bid didn't help you ?

[Winstonm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-February-20, 12:07, said:

So you're going to bid your 18 count as a 13 count because the diamond bid didn't help you ?

At this point, we have to decide whether to overbid or underbid - your mileage may vary. My experience taught me that overbids are more costly for the most part.

And on a totally unrelated subject, the benefit of a weak 2D bid IMO is that it steals all those nuanced auctions with reverses and Lebenohl and such and puts the auction for the opponents back into a more basic structure. Surely that is worth something.

[Cyberyeti]

 Winstonm, on 2018-February-20, 13:26, said:

At this point, we have to decide whether to overbid or underbid - your mileage may vary. My experience taught me that overbids are more costly for the most part.

And on a totally unrelated subject, the benefit of a weak 2D bid IMO is that it steals all those nuanced auctions with reverses and Lebenohl and such and puts the auction for the opponents back into a more basic structure. Surely that is worth something.

I feel my 18 count has got miles better, the spade K figures to be behind the A if partner doesn't have it, we are potentially making a slam opposite the right 8 count (xx, KQxxx, xxxx, Kx) and a grand opposite the right 12 (same with A♠), I don't feel I can just sign off.

That said I agree with you that 2♣ is MUCH better than 2♠.

[Winstonm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-February-20, 13:55, said:

I feel my 18 count has got miles better, the spade K figures to be behind the A if partner doesn't have it, we are potentially making a slam opposite the right 8 count (xx, KQxxx, xxxx, Kx) and a grand opposite the right 12 (same with A♠), I don't feel I can just sign off.

That said I agree with you that 2♣ is MUCH better than 2♠.

I agree that the spade King seems well-positioned - but I don't have trump length to take care of losing diamonds so I need a club fit to produce a lot of tricks. Obviously, if everyone agreed about every hand there would be no swings. I also don't think 4H is a sign-off - the question for partner to ask is why did I bid clubs with a game strength heart raise?

[Cyberyeti]

 Winstonm, on 2018-February-20, 14:31, said:

I agree that the spade King seems well-positioned - but I don't have trump length to take care of losing diamonds so I need a club fit to produce a lot of tricks. Obviously, if everyone agreed about every hand there would be no swings. I also don't think 4H is a sign-off - the question for partner to ask is why did I bid clubs with a game strength heart raise?

Sorry, your earlier post was somewhat off, I read the

Quote

If the auction continues with 3D by partner, I would bid 4H as the diamond bid does not help the hand. If partner raised clubs or rebid hearts, I would take stronger action, including a cue bid of spades.

bit as after a 2♠ start, if you've bid 2♣, partner can continue with 2♦ and you have space.

Also you don't even necessarily need to take care of diamond losers Ax, KQ98x, any5, x you have a good chance of a crossruff or dummy reversal.

[helene_t]

If you just wanted to ask for keycards you may as well do it immediately after 3♦. Or would that be keycards with diamonds as trump? It shouldn't be. Hearts was already agree with your 2♠ bid.

If you are not sure if hearts is the agreed trump suit and not sure if 3♥ is forcing, maybe it is safer to bid 3♠ or 4♣.

[Winstonm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-February-20, 15:07, said:

Sorry, your earlier post was somewhat off, I read the

bit as after a 2♠ start, if you've bid 2♣, partner can continue with 2♦ and you have space.

Also you don't even necessarily need to take care of diamond losers Ax, KQ98x, any5, x you have a good chance of a crossruff or dummy reversal.

Right. I sometimes lose track in these posted auctions - after 2C, 2D - Duh!

In that case I would follow with 3H, which is surely forcing (I would play 2H as not forcing, btw. With interference, we always resorted to a basic style where a 2/1 was only a 1-round force.)

[MrAce]

 dickiegera, on 2018-February-20, 09:00, said:

2♠ was intended to be a game forcing raise in hearts.

Partner and I were not on same page.

What should I bid next?
I chose 3♥ and partner passed.
I was hoping West would bid 4♥ so I could bid 4NT keycard asking.

How should we have bid this?

Thank you

Starting 2♣ can backfire badly if the auction proceeds like..

---

or

---

We will have problem convincing pd we have a genuine ♥ fit and not just making a simple preference. (there are many other examples, including the hands where opener can raise you in clubs, which may cause serious issues)
And no, What Winstonm said makes no sense to jump to 4♥ over 3♦ shows such a giant hand and expect pd to go slam when you are the one holding all these aces and 2nd round control in opponent suit. That is as polite as I can express my opinions on that suggestion. So I am with you on starting 2♠

Regarding your questions; if 2♠ was GF in your agreements than we know who is to blame for passing before game. However, if 2♠ was LROB (limit raise or better) you needed to do something different than 3♥. I would bid 4♣ with your hand. You said you were hoping pd to bid 4♥ so you can RKCB it. Bid 4 ♣ now and RKCB when pd signs-off (better if he cues too).

Having said all of this, here is an important detail. Even if 2♠ was limit or better, opener should never bid 3♦ if he has a hand that would not accept game invitation. So you may argue that even if 2♠ was intended as LROB, after 3♦, 3♥ should be forcing. But good luck with arguing this in a pdship where simple cue is GF or can be limit has yet to be agreed.

[Cyberyeti]

 Winstonm, on 2018-February-20, 16:06, said:

Right. I sometimes lose track in these posted auctions - after 2C, 2D - Duh!

In that case I would follow with 3H, which is surely forcing (I would play 2H as not forcing, btw. With interference, we always resorted to a basic style where a 2/1 was only a 1-round force.)

I would play 2♥ as NF but prob only 2♥ or 3334
I would play 3♥ as nat inv 3♥ 10-11 ish not 3334
I would need to 4th suit and raise

This makes sense for us because we probably open lighter than you do.

[Cyberyeti]

 MrAce, on 2018-February-20, 16:17, said:

Having said all of this, here is an important detail. Even if 2♠ was limit or better, opener should never bid 3♦ if he has a hand that would not accept game invitation. So you may argue that even if 2♠ was intended as LROB, after 3♦, 3♥ should be forcing. But good luck with arguing this in a pdship where simple cue is GF or can be limit has to be agreed yet.

I'd disagree, we don't have exactly this situation in our system, but we use 3♦ as a long suit try in some vaguely similar ones to focus partner's eyes on their diamond suit if they have an invite.

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-February-20, 16:25, said:

I'd disagree, we don't have exactly this situation in our system, but we use 3♦ as a long suit try in some vaguely similar ones to focus partner's eyes on their diamond suit if they have an invite.

I know many people do that mistake of trying to be scientific and descriptive on game trial hands. Trying to stop on dime. Good luck with that.

[ahydra]

In the debate as to whether to bid 2S or 2C first time - why not start with 3C fit bid?

Over 3D I would probably choose 3S, which is either a cue for hearts or a stop ask, but you don't mind which. 4C is a good alternative if it doesn't outright deny a spade control (I don't think it should). 3H is a mistake as it's non-forcing - it shows you had a minimum for 2S.

Alternatively, as others have pointed out 4NT is RKC for hearts here (since 2S is agreeing hearts) - if that's what you wanted to bid, now's a good a time as any.

ahydra

[msjennifer]

We play a 2C bid forcing so that’s what I shall bid and not 2S.
The bigger your hand the slower you proceed by making appropriate forcing bids.Thats what was taught me..That way you can find your partners hand more clearly.
In the present auction I shall jump to 6 H,whether one likes it or not,as I have made the 2S bid earlier .

[Tramticket]

 MrAce, on 2018-February-20, 16:28, said:

I know many people do that mistake of trying to be scientific and descriptive on game trial hands. Trying to stop on dime. Good luck with that.

Is it that you disagree with trial bids generally? Would 1♥, 2♥; 3♦ be a trial bid for you?

or is the problem more specific? i.e. partner has already shown invitational values (say 10/11+) and it is trying to be too precise and scientific to make a return trial bid? If it is this, then I tend to agree. 3♦ in this auction is pretty pointless as a trial bid. But we don't have any other use for the 3♦ bid - so if partner bid 3♦ I would interpret it as a trial. What would you use 3♦ for?