[zzxjoanw]

Inspired by the other thread.

Partner opens 1♣, you respond 1♦ with a 4-card spade suit, partner bids 1♥, and now you want to show spades but then it would be fourth suit forcing. What do you do?

[Tramticket]

zzxjoanw, on 2018-January-15, 00:28, said:

Inspired by the other thread.

Partner opens 1♣, you respond 1♦ with a 4-card spade suit, partner bids 1♥, and now you want to show spades but then it would be fourth suit forcing. What do you do?

I think that most who play five-card majors will respond 1♠ rather than 1♦. But playing Acol, for example, it is usual to bid four-card suits up-the-line.

In this case there are two viable alternatives:
- treat the sequence: 1♣, 1♦; 1♥, 1♠ as natural. In this case, you need to jump to 2♠ to show the 4th suot forcing sequence.
- treat the sequence: 1♣, 1♦; 1♥, 1♠ as 4th suit forcing. In this case, opener's first responsibility with a four-card spade suit (4414 shape) is to bid 2♠ to show the shape.

Both alternatives are playable, but you need to agree with partner.

[Stephen Tu]

Tramticket, on 2018-January-15, 04:17, said:

I think that most who play five-card majors will respond 1♠ rather than 1♦. But playing Acol, for example, it is usual to bid four-card suits up-the-line.

In this case there are two viable alternatives:
- treat the sequence: 1♣, 1♦; 1♥, 1♠ as natural. In this case, you need to jump to 2♠ to show the 4th suot forcing sequence.
- treat the sequence: 1♣, 1♦; 1♥, 1♠ as 4th suit forcing. In this case, opener's first responsibility with a four-card spade suit (4414 shape) is to bid 2♠ to show the shape.

Both alternatives are playable, but you need to agree with partner.

If playing "bypass diamonds to show spades with < GF values", along with 4SAF, there are (at least) two more alternatives:
- natural spades bids 1c-1d-1h-2s, 1c-1d-1h-1s is artificial GF
- just always bid 1s, leave 2s for something else or just unused. Opener with 4414/4405 will raise spades in any case and you've found your spade fit, if you don't actually have spades then you can support clubs/hearts if that was your reason for using 4sf, or bid NT or whatever.

FWIW I have come to think that using 2S as the artificial 4SF sequence is really bad, because often you want to make a forcing raise of clubs and opener prevents you from doing that at the 3 level. So I would use 1s as the artificial bid if you are going to designate one of them as denying spades.

[spotlight7]

Tramticket, on 2018-January-15, 04:17, said:

I think that most who play five-card majors will respond 1♠ rather than 1♦. But playing Acol, for example, it is usual to bid four-card suits up-the-line.

In this case there are two viable alternatives:
- treat the sequence: 1♣, 1♦; 1♥, 1♠ as natural. In this case, you need to jump to 2♠ to show the 4th suot forcing sequence.
- treat the sequence: 1♣, 1♦; 1♥, 1♠ as 4th suit forcing. In this case, opener's first responsibility with a four-card spade suit (4414 shape) is to bid 2♠ to show the shape.

Both alternatives are playable, but you need to agree with partner.

I play that bidding Ds first shows game forcing values.

6-11HCP hands bid the major first.

12+ hands with 5+Ds and 4S bid diamonds first.



1C-1D-1H-1S* in my methods is used for 4th suit forcing.

Since partner has a game force and 5+DS and 4Ss to bid diamonds first,

1C-1D-1H-2S* shows the game force hands and 5D+/4S shape.


If you bid up the line, auctions like 1C-1D-(2S*) create problems finding your heart fit.

Unless you do have game force values to bid diamonds first,

even 1C-1D-(2H) auctions will test your agreements.

[helene_t]

It is quite common to play 1♠ as natural and 2♠ as FSF. I think that's terrible. 2♠ takes away a lot of bidding space. FSF is the only game forcing bid so you have a lot of information to exchange. You need the bidding space from using 1♠ as FSF.

If you play Walsh style (i.e. 1♦ denies four spades unless you are strong enough to reverse), then you don't need the natural 1♠ bid. You can bid 2♠ if you want to show a strong hand with four spades. But since opener has shown an unbalanced hand with 4+ clubs and 4+ hearts, he is unlikely to have four spades anyway.

If you don't play Walsh, opener's 1♥ rebid is quite ill defined: 3+ clubs, 11-17(18) points, could be balanced or unbalanced. You need the extra bidding space even more, then.

Best is to play some artificial responses, say transfer responses, to 1♣. Second best is probably to to play that the Walsh principle only applies to spades: you bypass diamonds if you have spades but not necessarily if you have hearts. Either way, 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠* is artificial.

If you are concerned about finding the spade fit when both partners are minimum, maybe play 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT* as showing four spades, 5-10 points. Or maybe play 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠* as two-way: FSF OR natural. Both have drawbacks, though. So I prefer just not to show the 4-card spades unless I do so at first round, or I am strong enough to reverse.

[steve2005]

helene_t, on 2018-January-15, 15:58, said:

It is quite common to play 1♠ as natural and 2♠ as FSF. I think that's terrible. 2♠ takes away a lot of bidding space. FSF is the only game forcing bid so you have a lot of information to exchange. You need the bidding space from using 1♠ as FSF.

Maybe, but..
If your not playing Walsh but some sort of natural method and 1♠ doesn't show a good hand bidding 2♠ on a 7 or 8 point hand makes no sense. And playing this way you could have a spade fit so bidding 1N with 4♠ could miss a fit.

[msjennifer]

We play any 1Level response as forcing upto 1NT.So 1S is NOT fourth suit but is completely natural.We have not faced any problem with this method so far.Speaking about the 3rd and /or 4th suit at 2/3 level we follow the principles described in the Super Precision Of Beladonna and Garozzo..The methods given there are logical and simple to remember.

[nekthen]

I use xyz, which I think a great convention. So after 1♣, 1♦, 1♥ xyz applies
So 2♦ is GF artificial and 2♣ is invitational any distribution or weak with ♦ partner must bid 2♦ unless exceptional
This leaves 1♠ and 1N as weak 5-9 (maybe bad 10), which makes it possible to stop in 1♠

[pescetom]

nekthen, on 2018-January-16, 06:51, said:

I use xyz, which I think a great convention. So after 1♣, 1♦, 1♥ xyz applies
So 2♦ is GF artificial and 2♣ is invitational any distribution or weak with ♦ partner must bid 2♦ unless exceptional
This leaves 1♠ and 1N as weak 5-9 (maybe bad 10), which makes it possible to stop in 1♠

Even without playing xyz, the problem is reduced by playing a more basic convention, opening short club instead of better minor (so a 1 ♦ opening is at least 4 cards and a 1♣ opening is semi-artificial and could be 2 cards only).
This means that after the sequence 1♣, 1♦, 1♥ there is no 4th suit forcing, as both spades and clubs are effectively new suits. So both 1♠ and 2♣ are forcing, respectively affirming and denying 4 cards in spades.

[nekthen]

pescetom, on 2018-January-16, 09:13, said:

Even without playing xyz, the problem is reduced by playing a more basic convention, opening short club instead of better minor (so a 1 ♦ opening is at least 4 cards and a 1♣ opening is semi-artificial and could be 2 cards only).
This means that after the sequence 1♣, 1♦, 1♥ there is no 4th suit forcing, as both spades and clubs are effectively new suits. So both 1♠ and 2♣ are forcing, respectively affirming and denying 4 cards in spades.

True for 5 card majors. I still prefer opening 4 card majors, though I open 1 minor with 4 major and 4 minor

[miamijd]

You usually bypass a 4-card diamond suit to show a 4-card spade suit unless you have game-forcing values. 1S is generally played as FSF with 3- spades; 2S is generally played as a game force with 4 (or occasionally more) spades.

The trouble comes when you have a hand with 5 diamonds, 4 spades, and limited or invitational values. Now you must choose between (A) bypassing diamonds and (B) bidding 1d and not being able to show spades over 1H (you'll have to bid some number of NT).

Neither (A) nor (B) is the end of the world. Bypassing diamonds can be problematic if the opponents come in with spades and partner has 4/4 in the minors. Bidding 1d may get you into a NT contract when you have an 8-card spade fit if partner is 4423 or 4414. Neither one is disastrous. Personally, I generally bid the 5-card diamond suit (unless it is awful) and take my chances with NT, but if my partner wants me to bypass, I will.

Cheers,
mike

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2018-January-16, 09:13, said:

Even without playing xyz, the problem is reduced by playing a more basic convention, opening short club instead of better minor (so a 1 ♦ opening is at least 4 cards and a 1♣ opening is semi-artificial and could be 2 cards only).
This means that after the sequence 1♣, 1♦, 1♥ there is no 4th suit forcing, as both spades and clubs are effectively new suits. So both 1♠ and 2♣ are forcing, respectively affirming and denying 4 cards in spades.

It does seem a bit difficult to find a club fit here:

Opener: Axxx-Axxx-x-Axxx
Resp'r: xxx-Qxx-AKJxx-Jx

1♣-1♦
1♥-2♣* (what else? Smallest lie is to bid a minor)
2♠or2NT? (Can't raise clubs with 4-card support since responder might have only 2).

So far so good. We didn't have a club fit so there was no fit to miss. We will be playing 2NT.

But next time responder has a 4-card clubs.

And:

Opener: xx-KJxx-Ax-Axxxx
Resp'r: Axxx-x-Kxxx-Qxxx

1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
1NT-pass
Opener can't rebid his 5-card clubs as responder could be short. Responder can't show support with only four.

And:

Opener: Axxx-Axxx-x-Axxx
Resp'r: x-xx-xxxxx-AKxxx
1♣-1♦
1♥-2♦* (can't bid 2♣ as that would be a new suit and show more strength).
pass

[msjennifer]

helene_t, on 2018-January-16, 14:46, said:

It does seem a bit difficult to find a club fit here:

Opener: Axxx-Axxx-x-Axxx
Resp'r: xxx-Qxx-AKJxx-Jx

1♣-1♦
1♥-2♣* (what else? Smallest lie is to bid a minor)
2♠or2NT? (Can't raise clubs with 4-card support since responder might have only 2).

So far so good. We didn't have a club fit so there was no fit to miss. We will be playing 2NT.

But next time responder has a 4-card clubs.

And:

Opener: xx-KJxx-Ax-Axxxx
Resp'r: Axxx-x-Kxxx-Qxxx

1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
1NT-pass
Opener can't rebid his 5-card clubs as responder could be short. Responder can't show support with only four.

And:

Opener: Axxx-Axxx-x-Axxx
Resp'r: x-xx-xxxxx-AKxxx
1♣-1♦
1♥-2♦* (can't bid 2♣ as that would be a new suit and show more strength).
pass

All systems wherein 1C or 1D are played as prepared bids( xx or better) face the difficulty in rebidding.Many years back a standard system ,wherein only a bid of 1S promised 5or more cards and remaining suits could be opened with Four cards, was in use in USA.

With 4H and 4D the opening was 1H.A bid of 1C promised at least Qxx In club suit and 1NT was 16/18,2NT was 21/22(with Baron and Maj transfer responses),2Cwas 23 plus if balanced and else it showed 9 winners with a Major suiter and 10 winners if a minor Suiter and if a 2 suiter It promised 5+ Culbertson Tricks.The 2D response showed 0 to 7HCP or less than 1and1/2 honor tricks. It had its good and bad points.