[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2018-January-08, 13:35, said:

I don't think my partner would have rebid 2♦ with that hand.
I place him with something more like ATxxxx.

Well what else does he rebid ?

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-January-08, 14:13, said:

Well what else does he rebid ?

Knowing him he would rebid 1N and see which way the wind blows, not rebid diamonds with no high honour.
But the question was about how bidding might lead to slam.
I already conceded that 4♦ is by no means automatic.

[miamijd]

Not so easy to reach slam scientifically. As Timo indicated, certainly 2S ought to be "third suit forcing.: After 1x - 1M - 2x, where x is a minor, the bid of the cheapest unbid suit is artificial and forcing; this is pretty standard stuff.

Timo's suggestion that 3C also ought to be third suit forcing is one treatment, but I suspect that the majority of experts might consider 3C natural in the absence of prior discussion.

Using 2S as artificial, you get:

1D 1H
2D 2S(1)
2NT 3D(2)
3H(3)

(1) artificial game force
(2) diamond support with a hand that at least wants to investigate slam (otherwise, since opener indicates he can play NT, just raise to 3NT)
(3) cue-bid; should indicate a max hand for the bidding so far (i.e., some slam interest)

Once responder finds out that opener is max for his bidding, then with a 6-loser hand, a five-card H suit that might set up opposite Ax, and a ruffing value, I think responder can force to 6D.

Cheers,
mike

[PhilG007]

 pdmunro, on 2018-January-07, 02:14, said:

---

This hand makes a slam in diamonds. A number of tables bid the slam. Some Norths jumped directly to 6D over South's 3NT. Some partnerships explored their options by bidding their aces. We stayed in 3NT for a poor result.

How could North justify jumping straight to 6D?

Have any books been written on how to bid minor suit slams(?) I can't seem to find any or even recall if there was.

[fourdad]

I will likely be in the minority here, but I think 2D is an underbid. I value the hand as worth 16 (adding a point for each extra diamond( the 5th and 6th). North can then clearly see slam opportunities and his hand values to at least 16 so 6D would be easy. As bid, I would never bid 6D w/ the North hand...likely 4D at which point South can revalue and bid 6.

[fourdad]

 fourdad, on 2018-January-08, 17:37, said:

I will likely be in the minority here, but I think 2D is an underbid. I value the hand as worth 16 (adding a point for each extra diamond( the 5th and 6th). North can then clearly see slam opportunities and his hand values to at least 16 so 6D would be easy. As bid, I would never bid 6D w/ the North hand...likely 4D at which point South can revalue and bid 6.

Meaning I would bid 3D, not 2D

[cleveritis]

I would open a strong NT with the diamond hand.
Then 2D, 2H, 3C, 3D, 4D, 4H, 4S, 5d (encouraging), 6D

In your auction the jump to 6D is silly. Partner can have KJx, xx, Ajxxxx, kx for starters.

 pdmunro, on 2018-January-07, 02:14, said:

---

This hand makes a slam in diamonds. A number of tables bid the slam. Some Norths jumped directly to 6D over South's 3NT. Some partnerships explored their options by bidding their aces. We stayed in 3NT for a poor result.

How could North justify jumping straight to 6D?

[MrAce]

 miamijd, on 2018-January-08, 15:21, said:

Not so easy to reach slam scientifically. As Timo indicated, certainly 2S ought to be "third suit forcing.: After 1x - 1M - 2x, where x is a minor, the bid of the cheapest unbid suit is artificial and forcing; this is pretty standard stuff.

Timo's suggestion that 3C also ought to be third suit forcing is one treatment, but I suspect that the majority of experts might consider 3C natural in the absence of prior discussion.

Not sure if 3♣ here should suggest natural clubs. And not sure what you said is a popular expert treatment. After all opener failed to bid clubs when he could. Most people I know uses both 2♠ and 3♣ as 3rd suit forcing. You may of course wonder when they use which one. 3♣ is more like a 3 NT query not holding ♠ stopper and wants to right side 3 NT.

For example

xx
AQJxx
Kxx
Kxx

Now over 3♣ opener can bid 3 NT with spade stopper(s), can bid 3♦ or 3♥ without spade stopper, or can bid 3♠ himself to indicate partial stopper.

2♠ is cheaper so it should be used in all very strong hands to save space or in hands where we want to play the right game from the right side when respondent has club weakness.

[gszes]

I would not get too concerned with missing this slam. Your side almost always has one heart loser and most of the time you will need the club finesse to make 6. That does not mean you should not have the tools to consider slam in case opener is a tiny bit
stronger. I would bid 4d over 3n as a way to start a slam conversation and allow opener to bid 4n as a sign off else a cue bid. With this hand I would cue bid with as little extra as changing the club Q to the club K OR changing the heart suit to HH. So I would be VERY close to accepting a 4d invite but would have to bid 4n for the same rotten score you had. I would also downgrade the dia J as virtually useless after hearing 4d.

[GrahamJson]

 pescetom, on 2018-January-08, 12:14, said:

I think we would bid the slam quite comfortably, so long as N finds the courage to raise diamonds - a second look at his hearts should help him take the plunge.

---

It seems to me that in this sequence you have made the 4D bid almost forcing to slam, based on the subsequent bidding. After all, many would play that the 4H bid is merely showing a place to play, as a return to a major suit at game level is often played as natural. So, if 4H is a cue bid and 4NT is RKKB, where do you play if slam is not on?

[Cyberyeti]

 gszes, on 2018-January-09, 09:48, said:

I would not get too concerned with missing this slam. Your side almost always has one heart loser and most of the time you will need the club finesse to make 6. That does not mean you should not have the tools to consider slam in case opener is a tiny bit
stronger. I would bid 4d over 3n as a way to start a slam conversation and allow opener to bid 4n as a sign off else a cue bid. With this hand I would cue bid with as little extra as changing the club Q to the club K OR changing the heart suit to HH. So I would be VERY close to accepting a 4d invite but would have to bid 4n for the same rotten score you had. I would also downgrade the dia J as virtually useless after hearing 4d.

Stop peddling this rubbish, unless ♥KQ are both offside and they lead one, you probably don't need the club finesse, ♥10 is a huge card.

IF we decided to rebid 2♦ we would continue 2♥(art inv+, yes we use next suit up even if it's pd's suit)-3N(maximum no side suit, <3♥) and partner now probably continues with 4♦.

[pescetom]

 GrahamJson, on 2018-January-09, 10:04, said:

It seems to me that in this sequence you have made the 4D bid almost forcing to slam, based on the subsequent bidding. After all, many would play that the 4H bid is merely showing a place to play, as a return to a major suit at game level is often played as natural. So, if 4H is a cue bid and 4NT is RKKB, where do you play if slam is not on?

For us 4D is forcing to game and after that a 5D reply would be signoff with a useless hand, 4NT would be the last chance to RKCB and any other reply a cue-bid showing first or second level control in the designated suit. So 4H and 4S are cue-bids, 4NT now shows an even number of KeyCards and 5C is cue-bid. In all of this time we could still play in 5D if the slam was clearly not on. As it is, north could already call 6D, but his partner's 5D is ambiguous and so he prefers to continue to cue-bid, showing another control in spades and denying hearts. As it turns out, south has nothing more to show and just moans about lacking the Queen of trumps, so that's it.

[Lovera]

It being that with 2♦ S has devaluted its hand is better over 3♣ to bid 3♠ as FSF. N now knows that partner wants to play 3NT but with these values yet unbidden in partner suit can try 4♦ ...(Lovera)

[Joe_Old]

 fourdad, on 2018-January-08, 17:37, said:

I will likely be in the minority here, but I think 2D is an underbid. I value the hand as worth 16 (adding a point for each extra diamond( the 5th and 6th). North can then clearly see slam opportunities and his hand values to at least 16 so 6D would be easy. As bid, I would never bid 6D w/ the North hand...likely 4D at which point South can revalue and bid 6.

No, that's not how it works.

The 3♦ rebid promises 6♦. Therefore, you cannot add points for ♦ length unless you have more than 6♦. Ironclad rule. No exceptions.