[Stephen Tu]

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1. Should North bother to bid 1s after the double? I personally wouldn't with only 4 spades and minimal values. Maybe opps end up in spades. Maybe defending is fine.
2. Is 3H really supposed to be 17-20? I always thought it was supposed to be about 16-18 TP. Maybe 17-19?
3. Is raising to 4 right on just one cover card? Maybe if 3h were defined more weakly it would be less attractive. Especially when 3H was doubled, maybe East was going to take a shot at 3H doubled? Or maybe we are going to double them ...

I'm also somewhat skeptical of West's 2nd double, when East had a cheap chime in of 2c/2d available, perhaps West's 2nd double should have a higher minimum.

[gszes]

This is a fatal flaw in the concept of the AI for some inexplicable reason the designers refuse to narrow the thinking of the responder. An original responder minimum is roughly 6-10. There seems to be zero reason an invitational bid (like the 3h)
should not trigger a pass on say less than 2 quick tricks and adequate trump support. The computer hand would then have to admit it is below the standard needed to raise no matter what description it gives to the opening bidder. It is a simple matter of identifying what an invitational bid is and then adjusting the computer's :thinking: to reevaluate.

[jdonn]

The 3 level jump rebids have always had a bit too high of a range, causing responder to almost always bid game. The programmer is aware.

[zhasbeen]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-October-04, 03:50, said:

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1. Should North bother to bid 1s after the double? I personally wouldn't with only 4 spades and minimal values. Maybe opps end up in spades. Maybe defending is fine.
2. Is 3H really supposed to be 17-20? I always thought it was supposed to be about 16-18 TP. Maybe 17-19?
3. Is raising to 4 right on just one cover card? Maybe if 3h were defined more weakly it would be less attractive. Especially when 3H was doubled, maybe East was going to take a shot at 3H doubled? Or maybe we are going to double them ...

I'm also somewhat skeptical of West's 2nd double, when East had a cheap chime in of 2c/2d available, perhaps West's 2nd double should have a higher minimum.

I would be ok with the 1S response with no takeout double, but I think a pass would be better in this situation.
The raise to 4H is terrible.
West's takeout is just plain wrong. "He" has only 3 spades and clubs are far better than other 2 suits. My vote is for 2C overcall, but only if I didn't know that north had 5 of them

With this being my tenth week of playing with robots I don't look forward to playing as much as I did in the beginning. If so, haven't seen any improvement, or even a sign that they are working on them.

Does anyone believe that the so-called programming staff looks at our comments? I haven't seen any sign of them and there has been no upgrade since 2011.

As long as people keep paying I doubt that we will see any improvement, or they are if the are even working on any fixes. From all I can see they don't give a crap.

[Stephen Tu]

zhasbeen, on 2017-October-26, 08:15, said:

West's takeout is just plain wrong. "He" has only 3 spades and clubs are far better than other 2 suits. My vote is for 2C overcall, but only if I didn't know that north had 5 of them

That's your opinion. I think most good players will disagree and think double is better. Yes, it will lead to a 4-3 spade fit sometimes. But with the ruff taken in the short hand which often works out OK. It finds 5-3 spade fits more often than 2c overcall, which often scores better. It's easier to make game in spades than in clubs, and double facilitates that. You compete at 2s over their 2H more often, which is more likely to get opps to take push to 3H than competing to 3c.

Double also makes finding diamond fit a lot easier.

2c puts too much emphasis on clubs.

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With this being my tenth week of playing with robots I don't look forward to playing as much as I did in the beginning. If so, haven't seen any improvement, or even a sign that they are working on them.

Does anyone believe that the so-called programming staff looks at our comments? I haven't seen any sign of them and there has been no upgrade since 2011.

Yes, they absolutely look at our comments. There have been many, many upgrades since 2011. Your post on the first post of this forum was nonsense. You only looked at the first post of that thread and concluded that the first post was the only one you needed to read, and there was no change from then. You failed to read the follow up posts on the thread and missed the 18 subsequent updates described further down the thread, latest in August of this year.

10 weeks no updates, that is normal. They update about 2-3 times per year, not every couple months.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-October-04, 03:50, said:

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1. Should North bother to bid 1s after the double? I personally wouldn't with only 4 spades and minimal values. Maybe opps end up in spades. Maybe defending is fine.
2. Is 3H really supposed to be 17-20? I always thought it was supposed to be about 16-18 TP. Maybe 17-19?
3. Is raising to 4 right on just one cover card? Maybe if 3h were defined more weakly it would be less attractive. Especially when 3H was doubled, maybe East was going to take a shot at 3H doubled? Or maybe we are going to double them ...

I'm also somewhat skeptical of West's 2nd double, when East had a cheap chime in of 2c/2d available, perhaps West's 2nd double should have a higher minimum.

1. On Vugraph International level experienced commentators said if responder has only an Ace MUST respond to 1suit-pass-? Can't pass. They went on to give several examples. Maybe the same applies when 1suit-x-? must respond with an ace. Further this is the only chance to show 4+ spades.
2. whatever be the points or hcp it should be a highly invitational hand.
3. one doubleton and an ace who knows. depends on how you feel at that time.
4. west is showing good hand with clubs and diamonds. good club suit, diamonds on the side and a stiff heart.

my take!!!

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

virgosrock, on 2017-October-26, 09:59, said:

1. On Vugraph International level experienced commentators said if responder has only an Ace MUST respond to 1suit-pass-? Can't pass. They went on to give several examples. Maybe the same applies when 1suit-x-? must respond with an ace. Further this is the only chance to show 4+ spades.

These are really very, very different situations. The commentators are probably talking about with an ace and a 5 cd major, always respond to 1 of a minor rather than passing. Basically this is because you often improve the contract vs maybe playing some 4-2 or 3-3 or 4-1 fit if it gets passed out, majors score better and impede the opponents, and good things can happen when you find 9 cd fits, like making thin major suit games if partner has a fit and a really huge hand. Also good players have outs, like being able to sign off in 3M when partner rebids 2nt.

Holding only a FOUR card major, the upside is considerably less, especially after a takeout double. Only 8 cd fit possible and not even particularly likely, on this auction. On average you'll take fewer tricks than if you find 9 cd fit. Partner less likely to have 4 spade since 1h opening showing 5, only Flannery distributions. Chances further reduced by the doubler having announced spade length by doubling. If you do find a fit, spades will break 4-1 way more often than normal because of the double. Hearts are less likely to split if you need them as source of tricks. Minor finesses will tend to be offside. Partner much less likely to have a huge hand and game possible when your RHO has enough points to double.

If you don't find a spade fit and partner has his average balanced 12/13 count or whatever here you are declaring a vul 1nt with less than half the deck which is usually bad. Or your partner ends up declaring 2H going down when if you had passed the opps might have ended up in spades or clubs going down. If they end up in diamonds sometimes partner has 4 diamonds, they don't have fit there either.

So basically the chances you win big by bidding are considerably lessened and the chances of getting your side in trouble by bidding have gone way up.

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2. whatever be the points or hcp it should be a highly invitational hand.
3. one doubleton and an ace who knows. depends on how you feel at that time.

If this was all partner needed for game, IMO he has a 2c opener or at least a GF jump shift response after 1S, not merely an invite. He's not expecting 1S to be a sub-min stretch response for the reasons explained above.

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4. west is showing good hand with clubs and diamonds. good club suit, diamonds on the side and a stiff heart.

Yes, but west should be showing a very very good hand, because he is potentially forcing to the 4 level, not merely having an extra Q over a min takeout double. He already showed a good hand the first time. His partner rates to be broke if the opps have their bids. Should have like another K maybe.

If North had passed as should have, then E/W could have found themselves in 4♦ doubled down 2, vs. only a partial the other way. This is why West is supposed to have more to double a second time.

[zhasbeen]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-October-26, 08:57, said:

That's your opinion. I think most good players will disagree and think double is better. Yes, it will lead to a 4-3 spade fit sometimes. But with the ruff taken in the short hand which often works out OK. It finds 5-3 spade fits more often than 2c overcall, which often scores better. It's easier to make game in spades than in clubs, and double facilitates that. You compete at 2s over their 2H more often, which is more likely to get opps to take push to 3H than competing to 3c.

Double also makes finding diamond fit a lot easier.

2c puts too much emphasis on clubs.



Yes, they absolutely look at our comments. There have been many, many upgrades since 2011. Your post on the first post of this forum was nonsense. You only looked at the first post of that thread and concluded that the first post was the only one you needed to read, and there was no change from then. You failed to read the follow up posts on the thread and missed the 18 subsequent updates described further down the thread, latest in August of this year.

10 weeks no updates, that is normal. They update about 2-3 times per year, not every couple months.

“you only looked at the first post of that thread and concluded that the first post was the only one you needed to read, and there was no change from then”
You are mostly correct, although I did read several of the other posts. If there were comments about updates I either missed them or forgot. I saw 2011 last upgrade on the first post, and combined it with general mood of the forum to make my assumption.
And now that I think of it, another thing that has had a major impact on my pessimism towards effort by programmers is the bidding help, or whatever you call it when you run your cursor over it. The complaints have been coming for a long time and it is of critical importance (my opinion) to fix. I know it must be very complicated to sync the help with all the possible bids. I would now rate it as #1 over 5-card major overhaul as most important upgrade focus.

I want to believe that somebody is listening and that fixes are being worked on. My tolerance for problems goes way up when I know people are trying. So, its good know that there are actually people working on the problems that are brought up.

“That's your opinion. I think most good players will disagree and think double is better.”
I called someone that I believe even you would classify as a good player.
His response was somewhere between your opinion and mine, but more towards yours. He would overcall 2 clubs with the hand in question but had no great objection to a double. His plan would be to make the overcall, and then reopen with a double if bidding died at 2 hearts. He included preemptive value, and hand not being quite good enough to double then rebid clubs, in his reasoning for choice. He went on to say that with the same distribution and less concentration of hcp in the club suit he would favor an initial takeout. So, not as much concern about holding only 3 spades as I expressed, but still a concern

Major suits are a much broader topic that was trying to narrow down. One thing I’ve learned as I’ve gained more experience playing robot tournaments is that you can’t give up when every hand feels like a disaster. Everyone has to deal with the same wild distributions, double-dummy defenses, and bidding quirks. If you keep your cool and think it through you can still score well.