[Kungsgeten]

I've read in several places that the best opening bid in Mosca/Fantunes is the 1♦ opening bid (natural unbalanced and forcing with [13]14+ hcp). An unbalanced diamond is ofcourse a nice bid to have, especially compared to a nebulous opening, but how much does it gain from being stronger than normal and forcing?

Some strong/forcing club systems, which include a natural diamond opening, choose to expand the range of the 1♦ opening to something like 11-21 hcp and thus exclude most diamond hands from the strong club. Could it be a benefit to exclude all diamond hands from the strong club? In other words, something like this:

1♣ = Strong, but not with diamonds.
1♦ = Natural and forcing, 14+ hcp.
1M = Natural, limited.
1NT = Weak.
2♣ = Natural, limited.
2♦ = Natural, 10-13 hcp.

A big downside would ofcourse be hands with 5♣ and 4♦, which usually open 1♦ in this kind of system.

What about the natural route then?

1♣ = 2+ clubs, 11-21 alá short club (natural or NT hand).
1♦ = Natural unbalanced and forcing, 14+ hcp.
1M = Natural, 11-21.
1NT = Natural.
2♣ = Strong.
2♦ = Natural, 10-13 hcp.

Could this be better than the more normal 5542 style?

[awm]

I've thought it might be interesting to play a method like:

1C = natural or balanced, forcing and unlimited
1D = natural unbalanced, forcing and unlimited
1M = something like 11-17 natural
1nt = 14-16 bal
2C = 18+ with a major

You retain 2D+ as weak and get more limited major openings, and you have some better sequences available on strong minor oriented hands.

I guess this differs by not requiring 1d to be strong (just forcing, 11+) which gives up some of the advantage there. On the other hand I'd like to be able to open on 4441 and 4153 with 11-13 and opening 2D on these hands is not real appealing.

[PrecisionL]

Currently, we play a Mosca ♣ System with 4-cd Natural Opening Bids of 1♦, 1♥, and 1♠ with canapés into a minor.

1♣ is 15+ hcp usually balanced (75%), or ♣ primary (18%), or very strong (5%), or 4441 with 4♣ (2%).

1♦ is natural but not forcing and includes 5♠/5♥ and 4♦ and 15-16 hcp and ♦ primary hands up to 4 1/2 losers.

1♥ and 1♠ openings can include unbalanced hands of 15+ hcp.

1NT = 11-14 hcp

[Phil]

awm, on 2017-August-22, 03:29, said:

I've thought it might be interesting to play a method like:

1C = natural or balanced, forcing and unlimited
1D = natural unbalanced, forcing and unlimited
1M = something like 11-17 natural
1nt = 14-16 bal
2C = 18+ with a major

You retain 2D+ as weak and get more limited major openings, and you have some better sequences available on strong minor oriented hands.

I guess this differs by not requiring 1d to be strong (just forcing, 11+) which gives up some of the advantage there. On the other hand I'd like to be able to open on 4441 and 4153 with 11-13 and opening 2D on these hands is not real appealing.

sounds a bit like Marshall's stuff

[Phil]

One of the big advantages of Fantunes is you get to make a strong natural opening bid that makes preemption a lot less effective.

Why would you dilute 1C to include other hand types?

[hamish32]

we open 1♦ as 5+♦ 13+ points and we open a weak NT so 1♦ is unbalanced in the 13-15 range. it can be 4441 and 16+ specifically (because 1NT opening has all 4441 hands in that range but 1♣ is 2+.

last night this hand came up:

KQ6
A92
AT762
K4

AT875
QT
KQJ5
A7

our auction:

1♦ - 1♠
1NT - 2♣
2♠ - 4♦


1NT is 16-17 balanced with 5+♦ (some 5332 or 5422 or 6322 hand)
2♣ is GF checkback
2♠ 3 card support and 5♦
4♦ suit setting

7♦ is easy after that start.

Standard auction seems similar:

1NT - 2♥
2♠ - 3♦
4♦

although only opener knows about the double fit and only responder knows about their strength making grand harder as it needs the double fit and the extra cards.

We find we frequently bid more accurately than the room when we get to start with a strong 5+ suit at the 1 level in ♦. When they intervene responders ambiguity is much reduced.
Balanced hands with 16+ and 4♦ are opened 1♣ with a 1NT or 2NT rebid

[Kungsgeten]

Phil, on 2017-August-22, 11:53, said:

One of the big advantages of Fantunes is you get to make a strong natural opening bid that makes preemption a lot less effective.

Why would you dilute 1C to include other hand types?

Well, the only strong and natural opening bid in Fantunes is the 1♦ opening. The other one level openings follow the same theory, but 1♣ isn't necessary natural (since it may be a balanced hand) and 1M isn't necessary strong (since it may be 5-4 majors in the 11-13 range).

People have different reasons for playing a forcing club, but the limited major suit openings seems to be the biggest benefit of the system (compared to other systems with a more natural approach).

Many forcing club systems use a nebulous diamond, but some use a diamond opening which promise a real suit (Polish/Swedish Club, and "real diamond Precision"). There has been some discussion that a natural unbalanced diamond opening should be wide ranging, since you're low enough to have an intelligent auction and since a strong hand may need to show his suit at an uncomfortable level if opening a strong club. A limited natural diamond opening is ofcourse nice, but just playing it as natural and unbalanced you already have a well defined opening bid.

Perhaps I started this topic on the wrong note. The question is really if a 14+ unbalanced diamond (with an intermediate 2♦ opening) is preferable to a 11-21 unbalanced diamond. This is a treatment I think many systems could adopt, without chaning the rest of the system. Take this popular opening structure for instance:

1♣ = 11-13 NT / 17-19 NT / Natural with clubs 11-21.
1♦ = Natural unbalanced, 11-21.
1♥♠ = Natural five card majors.
1NT = 14-16
2♣ = Strong.
2♦♥♠ = Weak.

You could easily change that into:

1♣ = 11-13 NT or 4-4-4-1 / 17-19 NT / Natural with clubs 11-21.
1♦ = Natural unbalanced, 14+ unlimited.
1♥♠ = Natural five card majors.
1NT = 14-16
2♣ = Strong, but not with diamonds as longest suit.
2♦ = Natural unbalanced with 5+ diamonds, 10-13.
2♥♠ = Weak.

[awm]

The issue here is that the 2D opening seems pretty bad -- you have lost it as a preempt, and this opening with (41)53 type hands seems likely to lead to bad results.

I'm just not convinced this is better than 1D 11+ unlimited, which will be much better on the minimum range hands and only a little worse on the stronger hands, while recovering the 2D preempt.

[Kungsgeten]

awm, on 2017-August-23, 04:37, said:

The issue here is that the 2D opening seems pretty bad -- you have lost it as a preempt, and this opening with (41)53 type hands seems likely to lead to bad results.

I'm just not convinced this is better than 1D 11+ unlimited, which will be much better on the minimum range hands and only a little worse on the stronger hands, while recovering the 2D preempt.

I'm not convinced either. I do feel that unlimited 11+ is quite a range to handle, but perhaps it is doable.

A pair in northern Sweden used to play (maybe still does) a modified Fantunes version, which they had largely made up themselves (before anything was published regarding the system). They had an unlimited diamond opening, in order to get more clarity from the majors:

1♣ = 14+ natural or 15+ balanced, unlimited.
1♦ = 11+ natural unbalanced, unlimited.
1♥♠ = 14+ natural unlimited.
1NT = 12-14.
2♣ = 10-13 natural unbalanced.
2♦ = 10-13 with both majors.
2♥♠ = 10-13 natural unbalanced.

So they basically play a intermediate Ekren 2♦. A variation of this could perhaps be to play a multi, gaining you a weak two bid in spades.

2♣ = 10-13 natural unbalanced.
2♦ = 10-13 unbalanced with a five+ major.
2♥ = 10-13 with both majors.
2♠ = Weak two.

Or the multi could include 10-13 with hearts, or a weak two in spades. This would keep 2♠ being 10-13, which might be good for separating the hands.

[nullve]

nullve-nullve play

1♣ = "10+, NAT*, unBAL" OR "11-13/17-19/26+ BAL"
1♦ = "10+, NAT*, unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"
1M = "10-21, 5+ M, unBAL"
1N = "14-16 BAL".

* I open 1♣ with 10-15, 3154/4054/4153 and 1♦ with 10-15, 0445/1345/1435, partly in order to be able to use 2♣ as a second, stronger, Gazzilli over 1♦-1M. That in turn makes it easier to handle the huge "10+" range.

[Phil]

We played an 11+ diamond for awhile combined with a multi 2♦ and went back to the 10-13 2!d during the IMP pairs in KC (because we couldn't play Multi). We immediately had a few good results with it. The results were mixed with the wider ranging 1♦.

We do offload the 10-13 4♠ + long diamond hands onto 1♦ since most of the time you're going to have an easy rebid. When opener has 4+♥+ long diamonds there's a reasonable chance we are getting outbid in spades, so there is more benefit in trying to jam the auction a little.