[Liversidge]

I opened the bidding, which went: 1♦-(1♥)-1NT-(P)-2♠-(P)-2NT-(P)-3♣-(P)-4♦-(P)-5♦.
We made 5♦. When discussing it afterwards we were not sure what partner's bidding suggested in terms of stops. His 1NT bid promised a ♥ stop. Did his 2NT rebid suggest a club stop? What did his 4♦ bid suggest.

He had ♥Axx and 6HCP. I had 19 HCP and 4153 with a singleton heart.

Not sure whether 3NT would have made. The other team also bid and made 5♦.

[apollo1201]

Uneasy to answer but with 6 HCP, partner was definitely not obliged to bid (after all, you'd have the possibility to bid if it goes 1H pass pass).

Having denied 4 spades by bidding NT, your 2S shows a strong hand (should be GF after partner spoke freely) but not really sure about NT (so probably a singleton). So his next 2NT (*) bid should confirm stoppers in the unbid suits (and probably a serious one in H). And no good D fit - confirms his values are more suited to NT.

Based on that, the 4D bid is strange but it seemed you landed in the correct spot anyway (not too scientifically though 😀).

(*) there is no more "brake pedal" 2NT here vs in a "standard" reverse unopposed auction (eg 1D-1S-2H where 2NT now by responder could be a weak hand desiring to play 3 in one of opener's suit).

[Liversidge]

 apollo1201, on 2017-August-05, 10:09, said:

Based on that, the 4D bid is strange but it seemed you landed in the correct spot anyway (not too scientifically though ��).

Apologies Apollo, I now remember the bidding went slightly differently. 1♦-(1♥)-1NT-(P)-2♠-(P)-2NT-(P)-3♣-(P)- 3♦-(P)-4♦-(P)-5♦. It was I that bypassed 3NT because I was worried about stops. I took partner's 3♦ as him not being confident enough about his heart and club holdings to bid 3NT. Opps (friendly) suggested his two bids in No Trumps made 3NT worth a shot.

[steve2005]

If 1N doesn't promise a stopper you will never find 3N when right without playing complicated methods. So should promise a stopper.

[The_Badger]

In my opinion both the 2NT and 3♣ bids are wrong.

With a weak hand partner should have given you ♦ preference over 2NT.

3♣ should show technically a 4-0-5-4 shaped hand.

[Liversidge]

 steve2005, on 2017-August-05, 10:42, said:

If 1N doesn't promise a stopperyou will never find 3N when right without playing complicated methods. So should promise a stopper.

I understood this bit. It was the later bidding I was unsure of.

[Liversidge]

 The_Badger, on 2017-August-05, 10:47, said:

3♣ should show technically a 4-0-5-4 shaped hand.

My thinking was that partner's 1NT showed a heart stop, and his 2NT probably showed a club stop as well (which he didn't have). My 3♣ bid was to show that I had clubs covered so my failure to bid 3NT must show some concern about how good his heart cover was. When he bid 3♦ I took that to show he was not that confident so with my small heart singleton I opted to invite game in diamonds.

I didn't appreciate that my 3♣ bid showed four clubs. I had AJ3. In any event, we were both 'winging it' as neither of us has a good grasp of the technicalities of this type of sequence, hence my post.

[ahydra]

The auction seems fine up to 2NT. I would then bid 3NT rather than 3C, now you know about stops in all suits.

If you weren't sure about NT for some reason - and a potential club lead through the AJx is a reasonable argument here, though most would lead hearts - it's OK to pattern out with 3C. I think that this should show 4153, as with 4054 one should bid 3C not 2S, partner having denied four spades. (For the same reason, you could also consider the practical 3NT over 1NT.)

There are various intricacies about this sequence such as: does 3D promise three diamonds, what does bidding 3NT over 3D mean as opposed to 3NT direct over 2NT, does 3C promise a club stop / deny a club stop / ask for a club stop / none of those, and what does 3H from either player mean. These are likely miles out of scope for N/B

ahydra

[The_Badger]

 ahydra, on 2017-August-05, 17:51, said:

it's OK to pattern out with 3C. I think that this should show 4153, as with 4054 one should bid 3C not 2S, partner having denied four spades.

Up to a point I agree but what if partner thinks 1NT is a better bid than bidding 1♠ with a grotty 4 card spade suit? A high jump 1♦ opener followed by 3♣ suggests at least 5-5. Or maybe I am out of touch with modern thinking here?

[apollo1201]

 Liversidge, on 2017-August-05, 10:39, said:

Apologies Apollo, I now remember the bidding went slightly differently. 1♦-(1♥)-1NT-(P)-2♠-(P)-2NT-(P)-3♣-(P)- 3♦-(P)-4♦-(P)-5♦. It was I that bypassed 3NT because I was worried about stops. I took partner's 3♦ as him not being confident enough about his heart and club holdings to bid 3NT. Opps (friendly) suggested his two bids in No Trumps made 3NT worth a shot.

I think the 3C bid is fine and continues to pinpoint your H shortage. With Axx, partner was right not to insist in NT as you would need 9 immediate cashers, and his lack of HCP makes it unlikely.

But your opps were somehow right on the fact that his 2 prior bids would have called for a practical / agricultural try at 3NT rather than the 11-trick game (I'd picture sth like xxx KJxx Qx Kxxx for his bidding).

Actually, your p misbid his hand twice...

[miamijd]

With a 6HCP balanced hand and Axx of H, there is no reason for your partner to do anything other than pass over 1H. He can then bid 1NT after you make a reopening X, and now you can show your hand and get to 5D.

After 1NT-2S, it seems to me that 3D is the right bid, not 2NT. 2NT ought to show some semblance of a club stop.

After that, I think the auction is OK. I think 3C is OK to pinpoint the H weakness. You also could have rebid 3H, which would do basically the same thing. I don't think 3C necessarily shows 4C, although with a single H stop, partner is allowed to raise. 4C could be 4054, 4144, or possibly 4153.

Cheers,
Mike

[hamish32]

I agree that 1NT must show a hold since this way we right side 3NT if we have the tricks for 3NT but can be just 1 hold say Kx or Qxx in responders hand. I don't mind pass with a 6 count as has been suggested above but 1NT has the advantage of right-siding the NT cheaply.

2NT is a funny bid to make. Surely at this point if NT is correct from responders point of view he can just bid 3NT? It is normal I think to play 2♠ as a 1 round force not necessarily a game force. So sometimes responder may want to get out. However it would be more normal to get our into one of your suits not into 2NT after all he already suggest NT and you choose to reverse rather than bid some number of NT. If 1NT shows a hold then surely 2NT is 18-19 and 3NT is some hand with solid ♦. So 2NT by responder natural should not exist.

3♣ from you seems OK we would play this as 4153 or 4054. we don't skip a bad 4 card ♠ suit.

3♦ must be a suggestion to play and should be passed if 5♦ made then 3♦ is wrong.

In terms of agreements: We use 2NT in reversing auction as an artificial enquiry showing a positive response to the reverse. So 2♠ is a 1 round force responder can get out now by preferencing (or re-bidding their own suit if they showed one). 2NT is a stronger enquiry over which opener can describe their hand:

1♦ - (1♥) - 1NT - P
2♠ - (P) - 2NT (P)?

3♣ - 4153
3♦ - 4162 or 4261
3♥ - 4351 no ♥ hold
3♠ - 5162 or 5261
3NT - 4351 with a hold

This assumes 2NT is not a bid we ever want to make naturally and that it is a game force if used artificially (kind of reverse lebenshol). This means if partner makes a preference rather than bidding 2NT they are showing 5-7 hcp and opener with a very strong hand can still move again.

[Liversidge]

 hamish32, on 2017-August-06, 22:05, said:

I agree that 1NT must show a hold since this way we right side 3NT if we have the tricks for 3NT but can be just 1 hold say Kx or Qxx in responders hand. I don't mind pass with a 6 count as has been suggested above but 1NT has the advantage of right-siding the NT cheaply.

2NT is a funny bid to make. Surely at this point if NT is correct from responders point of view he can just bid 3NT? It is normal I think to play 2♠ as a 1 round force not necessarily a game force. So sometimes responder may want to get out. However it would be more normal to get our into one of your suits not into 2NT after all he already suggest NT and you choose to reverse rather than bid some number of NT. If 1NT shows a hold then surely 2NT is 18-19 and 3NT is some hand with solid ♦. So 2NT by responder natural should not exist.

3♣ from you seems OK we would play this as 4153 or 4054. we don't skip a bad 4 card ♠ suit.

3♦ must be a suggestion to play and should be passed if 5♦ made then 3♦ is wrong.

In terms of agreements: We use 2NT in reversing auction as an artificial enquiry showing a positive response to the reverse. So 2♠ is a 1 round force responder can get out now by preferencing (or re-bidding their own suit if they showed one). 2NT is a stronger enquiry over which opener can describe their hand:

1♦ - (1♥) - 1NT - P
2♠ - (P) - 2NT (P)?

3♣ - 4153
3♦ - 4162 or 4261
3♥ - 4351 no ♥ hold
3♠ - 5162 or 5261
3NT - 4351 with a hold

This assumes 2NT is not a bid we ever want to make naturally and that it is a game force if used artificially (kind of reverse lebenshol). This means if partner makes a preference rather than bidding 2NT they are showing 5-7 hcp and opener with a very strong hand can still move again.

I follow, like and have bookmarked it!

[miamijd]

 hamish32, on 2017-August-06, 22:05, said:

I agree that 1NT must show a hold since this way we right side 3NT if we have the tricks for 3NT but can be just 1 hold say Kx or Qxx in responders hand. I don't mind pass with a 6 count as has been suggested above but 1NT has the advantage of right-siding the NT cheaply.

2NT is a funny bid to make. Surely at this point if NT is correct from responders point of view he can just bid 3NT? It is normal I think to play 2♠ as a 1 round force not necessarily a game force. So sometimes responder may want to get out. However it would be more normal to get our into one of your suits not into 2NT after all he already suggest NT and you choose to reverse rather than bid some number of NT. If 1NT shows a hold then surely 2NT is 18-19 and 3NT is some hand with solid ♦. So 2NT by responder natural should not exist.

3♣ from you seems OK we would play this as 4153 or 4054. we don't skip a bad 4 card ♠ suit.

3♦ must be a suggestion to play and should be passed if 5♦ made then 3♦ is wrong.

In terms of agreements: We use 2NT in reversing auction as an artificial enquiry showing a positive response to the reverse. So 2♠ is a 1 round force responder can get out now by preferencing (or re-bidding their own suit if they showed one). 2NT is a stronger enquiry over which opener can describe their hand:

1♦ - (1♥) - 1NT - P
2♠ - (P) - 2NT (P)?

3♣ - 4153
3♦ - 4162 or 4261
3♥ - 4351 no ♥ hold
3♠ - 5162 or 5261
3NT - 4351 with a hold

This assumes 2NT is not a bid we ever want to make naturally and that it is a game force if used artificially (kind of reverse lebenshol). This means if partner makes a preference rather than bidding 2NT they are showing 5-7 hcp and opener with a very strong hand can still move again.

1NT absolutely does NOT right-side the NT. If partner has something like Qx(x) or Jxx, you want the hard stop (A) in the dummy with the H bidder on lead. That's why a natural 1NT over an overcall is much better made with QJxx or KJxx or QTxx than with Ax(x) or Kx (though sometimes you don't have a choice).

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

One point that hasn't been made yet -- and it's a neat bid.

After 1NT (which I don't agree with, but let's say responder had a really nice 7-count with KJx of H instead), opener can bid 3H! This is a self-splinter, and shows a game force hand with 0-1 of the suit bid.

The rule is that after 1m-1NT, if a bid of 2X would be a reverse, then a bid of 3X is a self-splinter. It generally should not be used with 4441 or 4414 hands. It ought to show 5-6 of the minor opened, 0-1 of the splinter suit, and 43 or 44 in the other suits, with the 4-card suit(s) being higher-ranking than the opened suit (otherwise, make a jump shift).

So here: 1D (1H) 1NT 3H*

shows 5-6 D 0-1 H 3-4S 3C

You can't have 4C or you would bid 3C over 1NT as a jump shift (partner might have a good club fit, and you can pattern out with 3S over 3D). So that leaves you with

4153 (most likely)
4063 (possible)
3163 (also possible, b/c 3D over 1NT is non-forcing)

A very useful treatment, and one that will get you to the right spot. I recall a hand I played 20 years ago in a Regional Swiss event. I had

AQJx Kxx x AKxxx

Partner had Kxx Axx xxx Qxxx

I opened 1C; partner bid 1NT; and I self-splintered with 3D. We found 6C very easily after that.

Cheers,
Mike

[hamish32]

 miamijd, on 2017-August-07, 11:39, said:

1NT absolutely does NOT right-side the NT. If partner has something like Qx(x) or Jxx, you want the hard stop (A) in the dummy with the H bidder on lead. That's why a natural 1NT over an overcall is much better made with QJxx or KJxx or QTxx than with Ax(x) or Kx (though sometimes you don't have a choice).

Cheers,
Mike

Agree Mike I prefer more than Qxx or Kx. sometimes my hand says 1NT and in these cases that is the minimum from my point of view. A while ago there was a poll on this on Bridge winners and you and I are in the minority with many people ignoring holds altogether or requiring Jxxx or T9xx only. I was very surprised at that it does not seem hard to catch up with an 8 count with no hold.

[Liversidge]

 miamijd, on 2017-August-07, 11:49, said:

After 1NT (which I don't agree with, but let's say responder had a really nice 7-count with KJx of H instead), opener can bid 3H! This is a self-splinter, and shows a game force hand with 0-1 of the suit bid.

I look forward to / yearn for the time when I introduce my partner to splinters. Next convention on our list is the Jacoby 2NT, then slam cue bidding, splinters by responder, by opener and finally self-splinters. Last week, as a teaser, I sent partner and example of a 13 HCP 7 loser hand opposite two 13 HCP almost identical 13 HCP hands with 7 losers and a side suit singleton, the only difference being two side suits swopped opposite the splinter suit. A small slam was solid in one and game dubious in the other. I asked him if he could think of how to find the slam in one and avoid it in the other. He is still thinking about it.

[JLilly]

For people who've said that responder's 1NT (in 1♦-(1♥)-1NT) should have a stopper in hearts, what do you do with, say, 9-10 HCP and 3=4=3=3, with four crappy hearts? Do you raise your partner's minor?

[P_Marlowe]

 JLilly, on 2017-August-27, 13:17, said:

For people who've said that responder's 1NT (in 1♦-(1♥)-1NT) should have a stopper in hearts, what do you do with, say, 9-10 HCP and 3=4=3=3, with four crappy hearts? Do you raise your partner's minor?

#1 the discussion, if 1 NT requires a stopper, is ..., I used to play "No", but this was in a weak NT
context, and due to this fact, it worked pretty well.
There was no real need for opener to check for a stopper.
Now I play, that it showes a stopper, whatever you may call a holding, that looks like a stopper, Qxx
is enough.

#2 A less common agreement, but not out of space either, is to use X to show this type hand.
If you have 4 spades, you can bid 1S. Of course you loose the option to show 5+ spades, making
it harder to compete to the 3 level.
But even if you have 9 combined trumps, it is not 100% LoTT based clear, if you should always bid
3S over their level contract, it is LoTT correct to bid 3? over their 2 level contract, holding only
8 trumps.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

 JLilly, on 2017-August-27, 13:17, said:

For people who've said that responder's 1NT (in 1♦-(1♥)-1NT) should have a stopper in hearts, what do you do with, say, 9-10 HCP and 3=4=3=3, with four crappy hearts? Do you raise your partner's minor?

Maybe. Whatever you do, don't bid 1NT without a stopper.

You can also pass. OP plays weak NT, which means that one of the issues with passing is that opener might had a balanced 16 count with three hearts. We will then be defending 1♥ with seven trumps between us. Whether this is OK would depend on the scoring and vulnerability. Against vulnerable opponents at matchpoints, two down would often score well.

If you chose to pass, you have to be prepared to respond to partner's reopening dbl. Jumping in diamonds is probably the only option.

Raising immediately on a hand where you are actually quite happy defend has the disadvantage that it encourages partner to bid 3/4♦ over their 2/3♥.