[Cyberyeti]

The auction proceeds round the table starting with partner:

1♥-(2♣)-X-(3♣)-

How does he show the following hands:

A big hand with a big heart suit (AKQ10xx and a 17 count)
A hand just too good to open 4♥ that would have rebid 4♥ (you don't have an opening 4♣ bid available to show hearts, it's natural)

[steve2005]

You have 4♣ for one 4♥ for the other.

[MrAce]

steve2005, on 2017-July-30, 19:35, said:

You have 4♣ for one 4♥ for the other.

This! +1000

[Cyberyeti]

steve2005, on 2017-July-30, 19:35, said:

You have 4♣ for one 4♥ for the other.

What's X followed by 4♥ ?

[The_Badger]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-July-31, 00:48, said:

What's X followed by 4♥ ?

The strange thing is even though 4♣ is the right bid (in my opinion and others) it doesn't quite feel the right bid, if you understand what I mean. Taking away a whole level of bidding to emphasise the quality of your hand and suit might push the partnership too high. Let's be honest a good opening hand with a good suit opposite a negative double isn't a guarantee of slam by a long stretch of the imagination.

I, too, contemplated X followed by 4♥ as a more conservative way of advancing the bidding. The problem I can see with that is that X could be seen, in my view, as just extra values in a responsive type double situation hand. Bidding 4♥ after X could be seen as (?) good, long suit, not solid, some fit with partner, 13-15 count. Mmmm...even I'm not sure.

[Cyberyeti]

The hand that caused the problem was something like:

---

Partner bid 4♥ thinking he was showing extra values, I thought he's X/4♣ with that and just had long hearts.

Not sure whether 4♦ is in the frame as our doubles tend to be both unbid suits.

[The_Badger]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-July-31, 05:08, said:

The hand that caused the problem was something like:

---

Partner bid 4♥ thinking he was showing extra values, I thought he's X/4♣ with that and just had long hearts.

Not sure whether 4♦ is in the frame as our doubles tend to be both unbid suits.

4♥ with that hand, with its singleton ♣, good cards in the doubler's suits and a solid heart suit is not only a bad bid, but a really lazy bid, in my opinion.

[steve2005]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-July-31, 00:48, said:

What's X followed by 4♥ ?

You could assign a meaning to X 4♥ but it has to be a hand that can stand p converting to penalty.
You could define X such that p can't pass but then please tell me in advance so I know I can get into your auction with 0 risk.

[dokoko]

wrong forum. put it to I/A!

[Cyberyeti]

steve2005, on 2017-July-31, 07:12, said:

You could assign a meaning to X 4♥ but it has to be a hand that can stand p converting to penalty.
You could define X such that p can't pass but then please tell me in advance so I know I can get into your auction with 0 risk.

You can't enter the auction with zero risk, it could easily go 3♣-P-P-X-P-P-P

[Cyberyeti]

dokoko, on 2017-July-31, 13:01, said:

wrong forum. put it to I/A!

I'm not sure, I've had expert answers elsewhere that go into much more depth than anybody has here, particularly around the auction where you double.

Also I haven't seen anybody suggest how the auction should continue, and where you want to end up at pairs/teams.

[MrAce]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-July-31, 00:48, said:

What's X followed by 4♥ ?

I assume you are talking about opener's X followed by opener's 4♥?
It does not mean anything in the context you asked. Depends on what responder bids over your X. If your pd responds 3♥ over your double, there are hands where you can now bid 4♥ even with just 5 of them and usually with 6 of them.
Since you can not know which respond you will receive, then it is hard to assign a meaning in the context you asked.

[steve2005]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-July-31, 14:00, said:

You can't enter the auction with zero risk, it could easily go 3♣-P-P-X-P-P-P

What are you talking about. 1♥ was opened. This is not a real risky auction.

[ggwhiz]

I have a lot of sympathy for the 4♥ bid.

Partner didn't promise a mountain and double could go float or 4♣ could be interpreted as a big hand with spades. Without specific discussion to the contrary I would move with the north hand.

[Cyberyeti]

steve2005, on 2017-July-31, 15:42, said:

What are you talking about. 1♥ was opened. This is not a real risky auction.

I assumed you were talking about being able to bid 1♥-(2♣)-X-(3♣) with impunity at which point it can easily go P-P-X-P-P-P with opener holding 5♥/4-5♣ on a misfit.

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2017-July-31, 15:34, said:

I assume you are talking about opener's X followed by opener's 4♥?
It does not mean anything in the context you asked. Depends on what responder bids over your X. If your pd responds 3♥ over your double, there are hands where you can now bid 4♥ even with just 5 of them and usually with 6 of them.
Since you can not know which respond you will receive, then it is hard to assign a meaning in the context you asked.

I'm talking about doubling, intending to bid 4♥ over partner's 3♦/♠/N

[awm]

I'd think doubling and then bidding hearts shows a flexible hand with some extras, maybe:

AKx
KJxxxx
AQx
x

You could belong in any strain (okay not declaring in clubs, but defending clubs might be right).

This is a common pattern for double-then-bid when there are alternate ways to show extras (for example I would play doubling a preempt and then bidding my own suit in a similar way).

For the original hand, 4♣ seems best. One of the hidden advantages of a style where the 4♥ opening is wide-ranging is less ambiguity in auctions like this; if I would open 4♥ on Axx KQJxxxx x Qx for example, then rebidding 4♥ here must be quite a good hand. Of course I understand that many people do not open 4♥ on such hands (their loss really)!

[gszes]

Too many hcp located in the heart suit for x to be a good option since responder may decide to convert. 4c seems to fit the bill here for strong and long hearts with extras. Agree that direct 4h should be made on a mostly offensive hand Kx AQJT9876 KJ x
i.e. something that resembles a namyats 4c opener. Switch the KJ and K to 2 aces and its 4c for me.

[Cyberyeti]

gszes, on 2017-August-01, 14:38, said:

Too many hcp located in the heart suit for x to be a good option since responder may decide to convert. 4c seems to fit the bill here for strong and long hearts with extras. Agree that direct 4h should be made on a mostly offensive hand Kx AQJT9876 KJ x
i.e. something that resembles a namyats 4c opener. Switch the KJ and K to 2 aces and its 4c for me.

If partner opts to convert with say Axxx, x, Kxxxx, KJ9 are you that unhappy ? Vul was love all

My view was that 4♥ would be the Namyats hand, and I could live with X or 4♣ on the actual hand although I wasn't totally clear how the auction should proceed over either.

[rmnka447]

Would a 3 ♦ bid be forcing or would it just be a preference for one of responder's suits with a minimum hand?

If it's forcing, then after 3 ♦, a further ♥ rebid ought to show a hand that's something like 6-4 in the reds and is better than a simple 3 ♥ rebid.

If it's a just preference, then you have to have some way of showing extras and that would probably be double unless you specifically agree on something else.

This bidding situation is the kind of thing that you work out as you develop a partnership. I'm not sure there are any right or wrong answers, just what you agree with your partner and what works for you as a pair.