[Phil]

Been playing a variety of Fantunes for a few years now and like the platform for system development.

It's a very big thing to me to be describing one hand in the auction with the other hand ending up declaring. What about this basic structure where the opening are transfers a la Moscito?

1♣ = 11+, usually a weak NT and any shape including a 5cM. Responder has the option of transfer walsh responses or 1N as a GFR.
1♦ = 14+ with hearts (unless the hand has spades too).
1♥ = 14+ with spades (unless side hearts)
1♠ = 10-13 and long clubs.
1N = 14-16
2♣ = 10-13 with long diamonds.
2♦ = multi
2M = 10-13

The transfer openings would seem to cater nicely to an unlimited opening.

Thoughts?

[nullve]

So, basically,

* 1♣ is like a Martian standard 1♣ opening or a Fantunes 1♦ opening in one;
* 1♦ is like a Martian standard 1♥ opening;
* 1♥ is like a Martian standard 1♠ opening;
* 1♠ is like a Martian standard 2♣ opening;
* 2♣ is like a Fantunes 2♦ opening;
* other openings are like in Martian standard

?

Or do you plan to treat Flannery-/Reverse Flannery-type hands differently?

[Phil]

No Flannery in MS. It's not needed.

But yes, this is what i was thinking except 1C is unchanged.

Edit: no, 1c is unchanged. Not diamonds.

[The_Badger]

It's interesting to say the least, but personally I'm not keen on the unlimited 1♦/1♥ bids being transfers. It goes against the basic principle of transfers allowing the (usually) stronger hand to be concealed.

But I assume you are using a relay system where the distribution/strength of the stronger hand is always known before an opening lead, so there will be total concealment for declarer with the (usually) weaker hand without the opponents knowing basically anything. That does have advantages, but the disadvantage is that the defence needs to pinpoint less key honours in declarer's hand (certainly in part score and game contracts) to make their defensive strategy effective.

And on opening leads, I would rather it comes up to a strong hand than through it.

[awm]

The minor showing bids are likely to create some issues for your side (finding the right partial, occasional light game when responder has a 5M and opener has undisclosed 4 card fit, etc). The trade off is that these openings take a lot of space and give opponents problems too. But making these transfers seems to help opponents quite a lot (they get a safe double to show values, a cue, ability to pass and have another chance, etc) while not helping your side except for right siding 5m/6m (in fact you may be wrong siding 2m/3m by putting the stronger and more shapely hand in dummy).

Anyway I'd recommend 2c = clubs and 1s = diamonds. The latter gives you enough space to find opener 4M via:

... 1nt = hearts or GF relay
... 2c = spades
... 2d = to play

An interesting variant might be 2D natural and 1S 10-13 with spades or 4-9 with hearts, but I don't suppose this is allowed anywhere.

[Kungsgeten]

Can 1♦ and 1♥ be transfers into a four card major, when holding a longer minor (as in Moscito)? Even if they can, it seems like 1♣ includes a lot of hand types that will be difficult to sort out, both in constructive auctions but especially in competitive auctions. Sure, many times it will be the weak NT, but my guess is that it will be uncomfortable when it isn't. From what I understand, 1♣ includes this:

a) 11-13 (semi)balanced. Any 5332 and any 4441. If Fantunes style, then also any 5422?
b) 14+ with any 4441.
c) 14+ with primary clubs.
d) 14+ with primary diamonds.
e) 17+ NT.

Compared to a Polish Club you open a tad lighter with hand type A, C and E. You also include hand type B and D in the 14-17 range. You exclude 18+ with primary majors. As long as you discuss what opener needs to take action in a competitive auction, and if it is forcing or not, and you accept that sometimes opener will not be able to show his minor, I guess it could work. Since opener haven't got a primary major, I guess you could use an unbid major suit for some kind of strong hands in a competitive auction.

I myself play a club opening which includes:

a) 12-14 NT, not 5M332.
b) 17+ unbal, but 20+ if primary diamonds.
c) 20+ NT / 4441.

This is already pretty awkward to handle sometimes in a competitive auction.

[nullve]

What if 1♠ is 10-13 with hearts?

E.g.

1♣ = as above, but possbily denying 4+ H (or maybe just 3-S4+H?) if 11-13 BAL
1♠ = "10-13, either 4H5+m, 5+H4+m or 1-suited w/ 6+ H" / 11-13 BAL, 4-5 H?
2♣ = "10-13, either 4S5+m, 5+S4+m or 1-suited w/ 6+ S"
2♥ = "10-13, either both minors or 1-suited w/ 6+ D" (=> 2♠ = GF relay; 2N = "bid your longest minor")
2♠ = "10-13, 1-suited w/ 6+ C"
other: as above

I don't know how to handle the 1♣ opening yet, but without 11-13 BAL, 4-5 H in 1♣ it becomes easier to play the 1♦ response to 1♣ as "hearts or negative"*, as in

1♣-?:

1♦ = "4+ H or negative"
...1♥ = Fantunes 1♦ opening (maybe not w/ 4+ S) or 17-19 BAL or good H "raise" (or ...)
...1♠ = NAT (unBAL?)
...1N = 11-13 BAL, 2-3 H, possibly denying 4+ S
...2♣/2♦/2♠(?)/3♣(?): "as over 1♣-1♥ in standard, but with ranges shifted upwards"
...2♥ = "as over 1♣-1♥ in standard, but always unBAL and with the range shifted upwards"**
...other = ?
1♥ = "4+ S, positive"
...1♠ = Fantunes 1♦ opening
...1N = 11-13 BAL, 2-3 S
...2♣/2♦/2♥/2♠/3♣+: "as over 1♣-1♠ in standard, but with ranges shifted upwards"
...2N = 17-19 BAL, 2-3 S
(...)

* also played by jinksy and phoenix214 in their Fantunes-like system
** Responder needs a way to scramble out of 2♥ on negative hands without hearts.

This post has been edited by nullve: 2017-July-25, 09:39

[Phil]

Philosophically I'm having a tough time seeing how I'd want to shift to canape 1M or transfer openings. It just doesn't fit the approach.

Furthermore it's not a huge issue currently. With 3145 or 1435, we can open 2C. If the club suit is really bad we don't have a problem accepting a transfer into 1M. This is no different than revising 1N with a similar pattern in standard.

1453 is trickier but our 1N rebid is Gazilli or side hearts, so that's covered too.

[PrecisionL]

I have been playing a hybrid system based somewhat on Fantunes & Nightmare for over 1 year with Canape, weak NT, Strong Club, 15+, and intermediate 2-bids.

[hamish32]

I play a Mosca inspired system and find the forcing 1♦ opening (unbalanced with 5♦ and 13+ points) to be the strongest part of the system - or at least the opening bid that generates the most advantages over opposition playing weaker shorter ♦ openings.