takeout or penalties or natural

#1 shevek

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Posted 2017-June-29, 20:38

What do all these final actions mean?
Assume opponents are playing SAYC, better minor.
Is rank of the suits a swing factor?

(1♣) - no - (1NT) - no - (no) - X
(1♣) - no - (1NT) - no - (no) - 2♣
Would it change if opponents were playing a 2+ 1♣?

(1♦) - no - (1NT) - no - (no) - X
(1♦) - no - (1NT) - no - (no) - 2♦

(1♥) - no - (1NT) - no - (no) - X
(1♠) - no - (1NT) - no - (no) - X

(1♣) - no - (1NT) - no - (2♣) - X
(1♦) - no - (1NT) - no - (2♦) - X
(1♥) - no - (1NT) - no - (2♥) - X
(1♠) - no - (1NT) - no - (2♠) - X

#2 awm

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Posted 2017-June-29, 22:37

shevek, on 2017-June-29, 20:38, said:

These doubles are penalty for me, although I tend to play them as something like a 13-14 notrump with a strong holding in opener's suit (so they can be removed/competed on a five-card suit by partner). The delayed 2m bids would be natural. I've seen people play these as a "light takeout" but that treatment has always seemed off to me because these are not fit-showing auctions.

Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit

#3 The_Badger

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Posted 2017-June-30, 00:45

Most doubles below and including 2♠ in these types of auction for me personally are essentially takeout, depending on the vulnerability, etc. It would also be useful to know if 1NT after the major suit auctions is forcing or not? (Not every player plays it as such.)

The question that probably needs to be asked is why didn't the doubler double on the previous round of bidding? Essentially that the doubler didn't want to overstate his hand by making an immediate double, but now wants to compete with shape at a low level. (And sorry if it seems I am stating the obvious but I am bit bemused why anyone would want a penalty double when opener has shown in some of the auctions a six card suit or better.)

As for the two auctions where the opponents overcall the opener's (usually short) minor suit belatedly at the two level, they are a good suit with at least light opening bid values. Full stop.

#4 Cyberyeti

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Posted 2017-June-30, 01:42

All the first few sets are takeout except the 2♣ over the 2 card club for me. We have the agreement that passing then bidding clubs over a 2 card club is natural in all auctions other than the UCB situation.

2♦ after 1♦-1N I suspect would be 5-4 majors no club interest, not enough for an overcall by our methods which would be very sound, the club equivalent would work this way if the club was longer than 2.

The bottom set are penalties.

#5 steve2005

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Posted 2017-June-30, 13:07

I've heard of these doubles for takeout with some length in bid minor and not in unbid minor. Don't know if this a good idea have just seen it,

Sarcasm is a state of mind

#6 shevek

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Posted 2017-June-30, 18:26

To me, there is a world of difference between

(1♠) - no - (1NT) - no - (2♠) - ? and
(1♣) - no - (1NT) - no - (2♣) - ?

In the first, a 1-4-4-4 9-count would be unwise to double 2♠, even if it is takeout by agreement.

However, a 4-4-4-1 9-count would be loathe to sell out to 2♣ in the second auction.
Here, the 2♣ rebid will nearly always have hit a fit, plus responder has denied a major.

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