[kenberg]

Hi Folks,

The auction begins 1D-2D and, playing strong NT, opener could well havew a balanced minimum. Most people, including BBO, say that 2NT is not forcing and 3NT shows a hand too strong to open 1NT. Clearly this can land a pair in 2NT making 3 if opener has a strong 14 count. Allow us to not open 1NT with a strong 14 for the purposes of this question. My partner would like the 3NT bid to be the 14 point hand, I prefer to keep it the 18 point hand.


Does anyone play the following? Responder when bidding the inverted minor promises either enough strength to raise 2NT to 3NT or else enough shape to rebid 3D over 2NT. Opener, with his strong 14, can still bid 3NT if that's what he thinks is right. The result would be that 2NT is never passed but this would not prevent the pair from reaching 2NT to play. Responder, with four card support and 10 or 11 points foregoes the inverted minor raise and just bids an invitational 2NT. To take care of certain minor two suiters, one more agreement would be needed: 1D-2D-2NT-3C would also be non-game forcing possibly with modest values and a hand not suitable for 1D-2NT or for a game forcing 2C response.

I think inverted minors was invented as part of KS. They and other weak no-trumpers don't have this problem with 14 pts balanced but we strong no-trumpers do.


The fact that no one to my knowledge plays this way suggests it is a non-starter but it seems sensible to me.


Comments are welcome.

Ken Berg

[awm]

With many partners I play the inverted raise is forcing to 3♦. Most of the time even an 8-card diamond fit seems to play better than 2NT (which is often a lousy contract).

Another treatment I've seen is to use the minimum bid as an artificial call on any minimum, which frees up some space for other sequences.

[mike777]

Great questions.

While you are giving inverted minors serious thought, try comparing it to versions of criss-cross where you can show;
1) unbalanced minor invites
2) unbalanced minor game force
3) balanced nt invites
4) respond to minor with a 4 card major at one level
5) still play 1minor=2 or 3 minor raises as weak.

If prefer inverted minors at least you saw what your other option was.

[pclayton]

There a couple of quick fixes.

One is to play 2N as forcing through 3 of our minor. This may not be a good solution at MPs where we want to play in the higher scoring partial with 13 opposite 10.

Another idea is to distort a little and punt with 2 of a major. Resonder will retreat back to 3 of a minor with the limit raise.

Another thought is to play the inverted raise as a game force and a JS in the other minor as a LR.

If none of these appeal, there's always a 12-14 NT like I play.

[helene_t]

Many people over here bid guards in hearts or spades with 18-19 so that 3NT is 14, or vice versa. Probably not technically superior but it's simple. But if 1♦ guarantees 4+ then your suggestion to play 2♦ as forcing to 3♦ is fine.

[FrancesHinden]

It's quite common round here to play that step 1 after an inverted raise is balanced. So

1D - 2D
2H

is 12-14 or 18-19 balanced (or some play as just 12-14 balanced).

Now response can bid

2S artificial game force, opener describes hand further
2NT natural NF
3D natural NF
others by agreement (we play more kit but it's not vital)

1D - 2D
2NT

shows 5 diamonds and 4 hearts (strength by agreement)

Similarly after 1C - 2C.

[joker_gib]

Another treatment is to reserve 2NT for 12-13HCP balanced and bid something else with 14 as in the structure below :

1♣-2♣
2♦ : 3 clubs. (if you can have it). Otherwise it shows extra values with something in Diamonds.
2♥ : Extra values. something in Hearts.
2♠ : Extra values. something in Spades.
2NT : 12-13 HCP. Balanced. 4 Clubs.
3♣ : 11-13 HCP. 5+Clubs.
3♦/3♥/3♠: Renonce. Extra values.
3NT : 18-19 HCP. 4/5 Clubs.

After the responses 2♦ to 3♣ the further system is:
3♣ : Minimum. Unbalanced hand.
2NT : Minimum. Balanced hand.
New suit lowest: Hold / Cuebid. Game forcing.
Jump in a new suit: Singelton and slaminvitational.
If the opener rebids a majorsuit at the lowest level f.ex.
1♣-2♣-2♥-2♠-3♥, shows 5 card major suit and 6+ minor suit.

1♦-2♦
2♥ : Extra values. something in Hearts.
2♠ : Extra values. something in Spades.
2NT : 12-13 HCP. Balanced. 4 Diamonds.
3♣ : Extra values. something in Clubs.
3♦ : 11-13 HCP. 5+Diamonds.
3♥/3♠/4♣: Renonce. Extra values.
3NT : 18-19 HCP.

After the responses 2♥ to 3♦ the further system is:
3♦ : Unbalanced hand.
2NT : Minimum.Balanced hand.
New suit lowest: Hold / Cuebid. Game forcing.
Jump in a new suit: Singelton and slaminvitational.
If the opener rebids a majorsuit at the lowest level f.ex.
1♦-2♦-2♥-2♠-3♥, shows 5 card major suit and 6+ minor suit.

Extra values is (13)14HCP+

Alain

[flytoox]

Play 1N opening as 14-16 can solve this problem.

[Gerben42]

I have very positive experiences with playing 14 - 16 NT, especially in this area.
1♦ - 2♦ - 2NT = My hand is not great.

Also in 4th seat 14-16 is the most frequent 3-point range.

[keylime]

Nah I disagree about 14-16 being magical - we've changed to 14+ to 17- because ordinary 14 counts put considerable pressure on 10-11 flat hcp hands from responder.

Inverted minors with us are through 3♦. We bypass four card majors as responder to show five card diamond support, so our 2M rebids are natural normally.

[inquiry]

We have an interesting thread on this subject, in which Fred shared his methods with us. This is the link to Fred's method.

I think you will find some interesting ideas. I have begun to adopt these methods, and you know what? It looks like Fred was right. I will quote his method below, you can go the the link above to read his other comments and comments of other users.

Quote

Step 1=Either minimum unbalanced hand (ie singleton or void somewhere) or any 4441 game force. Responder relays with next step to ask if he wants (low middle high low middle high).

Step 2=Balanced hand that does not want to bid notrump

2NT=Natural and forcing the 3 of the agreed minor (could be 18-19 but see 3NT below)

3 of minor=Balanced minimum hand with 5+ of minor

1C-2C-2S and 1D-2D-3C=Balanced game force with 5+ of the minor

Jump in new suit=Game force with shortness in the suit bid but not 4441

Jump to 3NT=18-19 with only 3 of the minor opened

Jump to 4 of agreed minor=RKCB

Jump above 4 of agreed minor=Exclusion RKCB

[beatrix45]

Very perceptive analysis!! I never realized the K-S connection was at the root of all my problems. God, how I hate inverted minors! All my partners want to play them (double inverted flip-flop Jordan, anyone?? Oh yes, I see, only in competition).

I have achieved a limited amount of inner peace and security only by insisting that we play the single raise as a game force. Of course, this renders a certain class of hands unbiddable, but that's why God lets me bid the other minor suit as my first response.

[kenberg]

Thanks to everyone for giving me lots to think about. Particular thanks to Inquiry for the link to Fred's comments on an earlier thread. I spent a little time before posting seeing if there was previous discussion. I figured there would be but I didn't find it.

Personal preference, both for me and my partner, will rule out changing our no trump range at least for the moment. This is not something I am prepared to fully justify, but for now we will stick with 15-17. I will give some thought to the many suggestions for coping with the problem and pass them on to partner as well.

Thanks,
Ken

[hotShot]

After 1m - 2m, we know that we don't have a fit in the major's. So we use:

2♥ stopper in ♥ but not in ♠ can be minimum
2♠ stopper in ♠ but not in ♥ can be minimum
2[NT] stopping both majors, but minimum
This way we can stop in 3m, if we don't stop all suits. And it's easy to remember, which is most important for us.

[shoeless]

inquiry, on Apr 22 2005, 05:24 PM, said:

We have an interesting thread on this subject, in which Fred shared his methods with us. This is the link to Fred's method.

I think you will find some interesting ideas. I have begun to adopt these methods, and you know what? It looks like Fred was right. I will quote his method below, you can go the the link above to read his other comments and comments of other users.

Quote

Step 1=Either minimum unbalanced hand (ie singleton or void somewhere) or any 4441 game force. Responder relays with next step to ask if he wants (low middle high low middle high).

Step 2=Balanced hand that does not want to bid notrump

2NT=Natural and forcing the 3 of the agreed minor (could be 18-19 but see 3NT below)

3 of minor=Balanced minimum hand with 5+ of minor

1C-2C-2S and 1D-2D-3C=Balanced game force with 5+ of the minor

Jump in new suit=Game force with shortness in the suit bid but not 4441

Jump to 3NT=18-19 with only 3 of the minor opened

Jump to 4 of agreed minor=RKCB

Jump above 4 of agreed minor=Exclusion RKCB

Curious about low middle high low middle high in the appendix to step 1 - can anyone enlighten me as to what that means?

[inquiry]

shoeless, on Apr 25 2005, 11:51 AM, said:

Curious about low middle high low middle high in the appendix to step 1 - can anyone enlighten me as to what that means?

First step showed some shortness somewhere (unbalanced). Since partner opened a minor, he is known to hold that minor, leaving three other suits. One will be spades, one will be hearts, one will be the other minor. High is spades, middle is hearts, and low is the other minor. So if responder ask, opener shows where his shortness is (spades, hearts, other minor)

Ben

[shoeless]

Is that to say then that the responses to the asking bid will be artificial, with the lowest available bid being shortness in the other minor with unbalanced and stiff or void, etc? If so, with GF and 4441 does opener then respond artificially a level higher to indicate shortness, so 4 steps after the ask will be the other minor? 6 steps consecutively available after the asking bid? Sorry this is new to me so just trying to wrap my head around it. Thanks for the help.